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Archbishop apologises for Dresden bombings

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Archbishop apologises for Dresden bombings

Old 15th Feb 2015, 20:05
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Walter,

I believe in the freedom of speech in this country, in a way I fought for it by being a Cold war warrior. That freedom also gives me the right not to listen!

ACW
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Old 15th Feb 2015, 20:19
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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I would repeat my fundamental disagreement with
and diminished all our humanity.
A member of the Armed Forces does not diminish their humanity by fighting evil, but enhances it, if the fighting is proportionate. I repeat my challenge for naysayers to propose a better strategy at the time.
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Old 15th Feb 2015, 21:33
  #83 (permalink)  
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Once more some do gooder with no grasp of reality mouthing off about something he understands F**K all about. Providing he did apologise of course and it's not been filtered through our completely factual media.

I liked what the German bloke said. Words to the effect of let's not forget who started it!"

DN
 
Old 15th Feb 2015, 22:01
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Providing he did apologise of course and it's not been filtered through our completely factual media.
You could always try reading the link in post #83.
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Old 16th Feb 2015, 13:20
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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I've read the Archbishops speech and I can’t see where he apologised. However, I can see where he infers what happened in our name was wrong but the thread as gone off on another tangent, usually thats my my fault, anyway I got to thinking.

Anybody remember, those dreadful essays, set by the CO, that had to be delivered to the Adjutant each year? As if, we weren’t busy enough! I recall one of the subjects I had a stab at was 'Strategic Bombing and its vindication' or something similar. I picked that subject because my Grandmother was killed in the bombing of Penryn in 1941 and she wasn’t a budding warrior, just a lady, asleep in her bed!

I read a book, like we were encouraged to do; by somebody who had something to do with the Air Ministry during the war. The whole book was about justification and for me, it was extremely valuable in trying to understand the extremes of air warfare. It clearly stated, that the bombing of cities and civilians was started by the Germans when they invaded Poland (Warsaw), they did the same in Norway, Holland and Belgium albeit; by some twisted logic, they only did it; to support their ground troops! Somehow, but not using that same logic, the Germans interpret British bombers were designed to bomb innocent cities and civilians! Somehow, the German High Command viewed their bombers as tools to bomb a path for its invading army and the fact that they were actually killing civilians just didn’t come into it!

By the time the British returned the favour, that same high command who opposed this tactic, completely refused to retaliate for a couple of months whilst German cities, part of the infrastructure was bombed, hoping, as Hitler said 'Churchill would stop this nonsense.’ Those who were opposed to this here were and quite rightly in my opinion, described as pacifists and socialists. Germany justifies the ‘Blitz' as retaliation. Whether, Hitler wanted it or not, he certainly didn’t want the mutual bombing to go on, why should he - it was working. I think he even tried to have it banned by international agreement.

All wars are pretty terrible for most people, not least the protagonists that step up to the mark and participate but the inter-European ones always seem to be about the domination of Europe and domination today is rightly condemned by most rational thinking people. I think its quite instructive to know that most of the propaganda spread, especially then and today about World War 2 is quite false - because if we understand that - it will provide a clue to the understanding the spin masters of Governments today are essentially the same as those of 1940.

ah well.
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Old 16th Feb 2015, 14:31
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Discussion moved since I've been involved here. I would add only one thing. Nazi regime was horrible and it was needed to fight it by all means. My point is that if you fight for a just cause it is important not to slip into hatred or to retaliate with a questionable means. We speak about strength which goes along honour and integrity.

You want to live with head held high in peace after all fighting ended.

Here is a great article which describes it all.

Some will understand and some not...
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Old 16th Feb 2015, 15:28
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Pali, Im afraid there are many more acounts of aircrew being lynched by German civilians and being killed whilst hanging in their chutes by Luftwaffe pilots {which in no way takes away from this one incident} for this to be held up by many as normal German behavior: had the pilots superiors found out I dont think he would have lived to tell the tale, he was indeed a very brave man.

Last edited by clunckdriver; 16th Feb 2015 at 17:23.
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Old 16th Feb 2015, 16:40
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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but that is a risk of the job for all aircrew bombing people

I'm pretty sure more than a few German Aircrew didn't survive a parachute drop over the UK or France (in 1940)

both sides targeted civilians - we were just better at it doing it from the air - you could argue the Germans were better at doing it on the ground or at sea
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Old 16th Feb 2015, 16:44
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Manhattan Project

Perhaps we should remember that the nuclear weapons being developed by an international group of physicists and engineers were never intended for use in the Pacific theatre. Had they been ready in time, I don't doubt that the Third Reich would have been the target...and they would have stopped the European War in just the same way that they stopped the Pacific one. That would have changed the face of Europe in the post war era...
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Old 16th Feb 2015, 16:59
  #90 (permalink)  

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Molemot. Don't forget that the Nazis were developing a nuclear weapon. If the Allies had been a year or two longer winning the war, Hitler would have had the V3 (or whatever) with a nuclear warhead on top.
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Old 16th Feb 2015, 17:31
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Heathrow Harry, I think you will find there was only one case of a Luftwaffe air crew being lynched during the Battle of Britain, and to quote the authorities," they reacted with vigor to prevent it hapening again", however at least two RAF pilots were given a few lumps untill they managed to straighten things out. I have a relative who flew in Bomber Command{shot down and badly wounded} and after the war had the task of digging up allied aircrew remains for the War Graves Commision, I have heard him state that ones chances of making it into a POW camp if other than the military caught you were pretty slim judging by the evedence that he helped dig up.
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Old 16th Feb 2015, 20:36
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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I would tend to discount stories of baled-out aircrew shot in the air from the air. It is hard enough to hit a thing the size of an aircraft, never mind a single body, in this way. Do you remember the balloon-bursting competitions by light aircraft at the Air displays of long ago ? (it looks easy, but isn't, to fly onto a point in the air).

In any case, in combat, your aim is achieved when you have downed the bomber. The crew, alive or dead, are no longer combatants. Alive, they are prisoners (useful to Intelligence, too). And why waste your precious few seconds of firepower when you might need them yourself in a moment or two ?

Lynching by an infuriated civil mob seems far more possible. When you have just seen your nearest and dearest killed or maimed before your eyes, and your home in ruins, you are not rational.

Kipling, as usual, has the right idea:

"I do not praise my country's foes,
Nor call 'em 'eroes. Still,
Where is the sense in 'ating those
'Oom you are paid to kill ?"

D.

Last edited by Danny42C; 17th Feb 2015 at 00:17. Reason: Spelling.
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Old 17th Feb 2015, 11:19
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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There was even some degree of honour amongst the Nachtjager crews. When using Schragemusik (upward firing cannon), it was obviously bad form to fire into the bomb bay from underneath (in case it went bang) so the German night fighters aimed between the inboard and outboard engines to hit the wing fuel tanks which usually caught fire after a few rounds. Nazi doctrine demanded that RAF bombers be attacked on the starboard side - if targeting the starboard side then the fire would trail past the main entry door of a Lancaster thereby preventing the escape of the rear crew. However, many night fighter pilots targeted the port side to give the crew a sporting chance of escape. (It was hard to get out of Lancaster anyway).
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Old 17th Feb 2015, 11:48
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Wensleydale, no different imho than modern gen aam which go for the cockpit area as the point of aim. Simple fact, trained experienced crew is harder to replace in wartime than the aircraft.
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Old 17th Feb 2015, 12:12
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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It's not exactly new. The aim point for cannon was always the pilot's head.
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Old 17th Feb 2015, 12:48
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Originally Posted by Basil View Post
No one has started another European war since.
Some people in what used to be Yugoslavia, and what is now Ukraine, would like a word with you about that.
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Old 17th Feb 2015, 13:06
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Both in Europe, and both involving people from Other European (and other) countries. (Russia is a European country, in case you weren't sure. )
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Old 17th Feb 2015, 13:30
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Danny,42C, trying to hit a very light ballon with an aircraft is very different from blasting away with cannon or machine guns , an aircraft will push a lot of air and cause something a light as a ballon to move out of the way, fifty call rounds do not telegraph their impending arrival. Regardles of this, S/Ldr Star, the C.O. of 253 Sqdn RAF was killed whilst descending by parachute on the 31 of August 1940, this is very well documented, when I can dig my way through the snow to the building in which my papers are stored I can provide you with many more examples, also will be visiting my brother in law in the UK next month who has extensive records and memories of the cause of death of may of the aircrew he dug up, a grim task indeed.
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Old 17th Feb 2015, 19:48
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Both internal conflicts.
There really is no such thing as an internal conflict anymore. What starts out by one is usually involves help by outside forces.

Rule one, either you help your side as your enemy will be helping theirs.

Rule two, how much do I care about my side and what do I stand to lose.

In the modern world borders are just lines on a map, the integration time of what is happening further away affecting yourself, is getting smaller.

As for Dresden, RIP, but tough, everyone wants to be a revisionist. There is one sad fact, war is a disgusting foul sometimes necessary thing (human nature -> animal nature) The moral question of how far you go in ending it as quickly as possible, to extending it is a hard one.

Another words the possibility of x people dying in short amount of time versus 10x amount of people over a longer period.
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Old 17th Feb 2015, 20:20
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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Sgt Leslie Pidd descending on a parachute during the Battle of Britain was also machine gunned whilst in the chute harness.
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