RAF Apprenticeships Graded 'Outstanding' By Ofsted
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" Up to 1969/1970, the RAF had an apprentice scheme to produce 5-trade [airframe/propulsion/electrical/air comms/air radar] "super-techs". Following a 5-year course, they graduated as a cpl and were boarded for promotion to sgt every 6 months whilst undergoing "improver training" on units.
I beg to differ, quite considerably in fact.
The "super techs" did a 3 year course at Halton which included airframe / engine / electrical / armourer trades and passed out as Cpls, thereafter becoming part of the then time promotion scheme, so in that sense, yes they did get promoted to Sgt / C/T in their 20's.
There were no avionic "super techs" at Halton however, all the avionics trades went through Cosford.
The Craft apprentices did a 2 year course, departing as J/T's and thereafter went onto the same time promotion scheme, in theory doing 3 years as a J/T, then 4 years to Sgt and 5 years to C/T, all promotion being based on the passing the relevant trade exams and, getting the required assessments.
There were also, for a short period, Mechanic apprentices who did a 1 year course, passing out as an S.A.C but with enhanced opportunities to be selected for what was then called the fitters course to become a J/T on successful completion.
To save you asking, I was there at the time departing as a J/T as were several others who post on this site.
I beg to differ, quite considerably in fact.
The "super techs" did a 3 year course at Halton which included airframe / engine / electrical / armourer trades and passed out as Cpls, thereafter becoming part of the then time promotion scheme, so in that sense, yes they did get promoted to Sgt / C/T in their 20's.
There were no avionic "super techs" at Halton however, all the avionics trades went through Cosford.
The Craft apprentices did a 2 year course, departing as J/T's and thereafter went onto the same time promotion scheme, in theory doing 3 years as a J/T, then 4 years to Sgt and 5 years to C/T, all promotion being based on the passing the relevant trade exams and, getting the required assessments.
There were also, for a short period, Mechanic apprentices who did a 1 year course, passing out as an S.A.C but with enhanced opportunities to be selected for what was then called the fitters course to become a J/T on successful completion.
To save you asking, I was there at the time departing as a J/T as were several others who post on this site.
Last edited by Krystal n chips; 26th Jan 2015 at 04:13.
Quite correct K&C, but just to "dot the I's". The original avionics guys went through Locking and I think the first super techs, radar and comms, went through Cosford starting with the 104th passing out in early 1966. I also seem to remember that the super tech training was aimed mainly at first line rectification whereas single trade craft courses included 2nd and 3rd line techniques, certainly for the avionics guys.
I was a 3 year, pre-super tech Locking App. and it was fairly normal to pass out at 18 as a J/T, CPL at 21, SGT at 25 and C/T at 30, subject to passing the exams, boards and having the right numbers.
I was a 3 year, pre-super tech Locking App. and it was fairly normal to pass out at 18 as a J/T, CPL at 21, SGT at 25 and C/T at 30, subject to passing the exams, boards and having the right numbers.
Oberon - to dot some more I's, I've lifted this from the LAA site. Assuming it's correct, and it looks ok to me, It gives a decent summary of the situation from the early 60's when we joined until 76 when it all came to an end.
" 'Air’ trade groups apprentice training was transferred to RAF Cosford in 1965. Training in the ‘Ground’ specialisations continued at No: 1 Radio School.
The 106th final entry of Aircraft apprentices passed out in 1966.
The first Technician apprentice entry was the 107th. It passed out in 1967. Technician entries continued (missing out the 110th) up to and including the 122nd which passed out in 1976.
A 2 year course Craft apprentice training was introduced with the 201st entry and entries continued up to the 226th and then a single entry the 231st which passed out in 1974.
The first entry of Mechanic apprentices, the 402nd (a 1 year course) commenced training in 1970. There were only 5 such entries. The final mechanic apprentice entry (the 406th) passed out in 1972.
Apprentice training ceased in 1976 with the passing out of the 231st Craft apprentice entry.
This was 24 years after the first Apprentice training started at Locking and 54 years after the first Apprentice entry started training at Flowerdown.
" 'Air’ trade groups apprentice training was transferred to RAF Cosford in 1965. Training in the ‘Ground’ specialisations continued at No: 1 Radio School.
The 106th final entry of Aircraft apprentices passed out in 1966.
The first Technician apprentice entry was the 107th. It passed out in 1967. Technician entries continued (missing out the 110th) up to and including the 122nd which passed out in 1976.
A 2 year course Craft apprentice training was introduced with the 201st entry and entries continued up to the 226th and then a single entry the 231st which passed out in 1974.
The first entry of Mechanic apprentices, the 402nd (a 1 year course) commenced training in 1970. There were only 5 such entries. The final mechanic apprentice entry (the 406th) passed out in 1972.
Apprentice training ceased in 1976 with the passing out of the 231st Craft apprentice entry.
This was 24 years after the first Apprentice training started at Locking and 54 years after the first Apprentice entry started training at Flowerdown.
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I think there are a few 'Rose tinted glasses' here!
I served as a Halton Brat from '82-'85. I remember it as an awful place that just about managed to cram 9 months of training into 3 years. I wonder how standing at the side of a road for hours (plus the practice standing), equates to "Outstanding training".
I can only hope that the system now produces more effective airmen/women that can be productive the moment they reach their Sqn
I might be the only one, but I was very glad to see the old system go.
I served as a Halton Brat from '82-'85. I remember it as an awful place that just about managed to cram 9 months of training into 3 years. I wonder how standing at the side of a road for hours (plus the practice standing), equates to "Outstanding training".
I can only hope that the system now produces more effective airmen/women that can be productive the moment they reach their Sqn
I might be the only one, but I was very glad to see the old system go.
O-P. I agree. I was there 85-88, and though I have some fantastic memories of my time there, there was an awful lot of padding in the apprenticeship. I certainly didn't feel ready to be a competent JNCO after a year either, and the less said about welfare/discipline the better!
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I suppose the benefit of any apprenticeship is that 'industry' is recruiting, training, paying and supporting youngsters in skills that are needed.
Contrast that with Bliar's army of overqualified university graduates with little hope of employment and £20k student loans.
However this 'modern apprenticeship' is easy to criticise. It is very much 'on-the-job training', amassing reams of tick box exercises leading to NVQ's and return to Cosford for further training. It's hard to avoid putting them on tea bar or gate guard
Nevertheless, the youngsters seem to have a path mapped out for them.
At the workface, it can happen that a seemingly clueless youngster will throw himself into a brake unit change (at 100% supervision) and then photocopy the maintenance paperwork to add to his NVQ Assessor portfolio.
Contrast that with Bliar's army of overqualified university graduates with little hope of employment and £20k student loans.
However this 'modern apprenticeship' is easy to criticise. It is very much 'on-the-job training', amassing reams of tick box exercises leading to NVQ's and return to Cosford for further training. It's hard to avoid putting them on tea bar or gate guard
Nevertheless, the youngsters seem to have a path mapped out for them.
At the workface, it can happen that a seemingly clueless youngster will throw himself into a brake unit change (at 100% supervision) and then photocopy the maintenance paperwork to add to his NVQ Assessor portfolio.
Things had obviously changed by the 80's
I was trained at Halton 1970 -72 (craft apprentice rigger)
Our training was first class - not much padding involved !
I was a 'professional' J/T for some years before I bothered with promotion exams,less than 2 years after leaving Halton I had an 'oversigning chit' due to a shortage of JNCO's LOL.
The depth of training given on the Halton apprenticeships potentially gave Halton Brats a large advantage in overall knowledge and understanding of aircraft systems etc etc
I was trained at Halton 1970 -72 (craft apprentice rigger)
Our training was first class - not much padding involved !
I was a 'professional' J/T for some years before I bothered with promotion exams,less than 2 years after leaving Halton I had an 'oversigning chit' due to a shortage of JNCO's LOL.
The depth of training given on the Halton apprenticeships potentially gave Halton Brats a large advantage in overall knowledge and understanding of aircraft systems etc etc
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Always good to hear praise for a system of which one was once a part.
FWIW, my memories of the appo system at Cosford started in 1976 when I trained alongside them as a direct entry (DE) Nav Insty. I wanted to join as an apprentice myself, but was unable to locate my ex-Headmaster for his signature on the forms, as he'd quite inconveniently taken his family overseas on holiday. Thus I missed the window for that year's entry and was "persuaded" that DE was the route for me.
Anyhow, back in 1976 the system was for a 3-year apprenticeship (as opposed to 15 months training for a DE), passing out as a J/T. Appos were either pure Nav Insty (L Tech NI) or splitbrain Comms/Radar (L Tech AC/AR). After passing out as a J/T, an appo could expect to get his tapes up after a year, providing he got the assessments required (two sixes as I recollect). Time promotion to Chf Tech disappeared in 1975 I think, but to Sgt (4 yrs) it was retained until about 1979/80. Those of us who had joined up in the expectation of time promotion, but who failed to be selected under the new system had reserved rights of pay to the next rank up, providing you had the promotion exams under your belt.
Forward to 1984, and I was back at Cosford as an instructor. The appo schemes were just the same except we'd all been rebadged. L Fitt NI (the DEs) were now L Tech FS (Flight Systems), L Tech NI (the appos) were L Eng Tech FS. For comms and radar it was similar (L Fitt AC --> L Tech AC, L Fitt AR --> L Tech AR, L Tech AC/AR ==> L Eng Tech AC/AR). I don't know when the scheme changed, but when I left Cosford again in 1987 it was still as above.
Back then, it was a bloody good training system overall. I can't speak for the appos, but us DEs didn't do a lot of hanging around - it was 15 months of technical training. I may no longer employ any of the technical knowledge I learned at Cosford to earn a crust, but it was all good background for what I do now. The overall ethos of integrity and attention to detail which underpinned the RAF techie training system has stayed with me, and has (directly or indirectly) opened many doors for me over the years.
I'd like to think that Ofsted saw some of that when coming to their conclusions about modern RAF apprenticeships.
FWIW, my memories of the appo system at Cosford started in 1976 when I trained alongside them as a direct entry (DE) Nav Insty. I wanted to join as an apprentice myself, but was unable to locate my ex-Headmaster for his signature on the forms, as he'd quite inconveniently taken his family overseas on holiday. Thus I missed the window for that year's entry and was "persuaded" that DE was the route for me.
Anyhow, back in 1976 the system was for a 3-year apprenticeship (as opposed to 15 months training for a DE), passing out as a J/T. Appos were either pure Nav Insty (L Tech NI) or splitbrain Comms/Radar (L Tech AC/AR). After passing out as a J/T, an appo could expect to get his tapes up after a year, providing he got the assessments required (two sixes as I recollect). Time promotion to Chf Tech disappeared in 1975 I think, but to Sgt (4 yrs) it was retained until about 1979/80. Those of us who had joined up in the expectation of time promotion, but who failed to be selected under the new system had reserved rights of pay to the next rank up, providing you had the promotion exams under your belt.
Forward to 1984, and I was back at Cosford as an instructor. The appo schemes were just the same except we'd all been rebadged. L Fitt NI (the DEs) were now L Tech FS (Flight Systems), L Tech NI (the appos) were L Eng Tech FS. For comms and radar it was similar (L Fitt AC --> L Tech AC, L Fitt AR --> L Tech AR, L Tech AC/AR ==> L Eng Tech AC/AR). I don't know when the scheme changed, but when I left Cosford again in 1987 it was still as above.
Back then, it was a bloody good training system overall. I can't speak for the appos, but us DEs didn't do a lot of hanging around - it was 15 months of technical training. I may no longer employ any of the technical knowledge I learned at Cosford to earn a crust, but it was all good background for what I do now. The overall ethos of integrity and attention to detail which underpinned the RAF techie training system has stayed with me, and has (directly or indirectly) opened many doors for me over the years.
I'd like to think that Ofsted saw some of that when coming to their conclusions about modern RAF apprenticeships.
I may no longer employ any of the technical knowledge I learned at Cosford to earn a crust,
The legacy from Halton though is not merely technical - we were taught to think things out for ourselves and we were expected to be irreverent and individual.
We did have some tw@ts on the DI staff but generally they were very good - the DI staff and Flight Commanders were amazingly tolerant of our behaviour and some of the 'traditions' were highly amusing
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Salad Dodger: I think it likely that our paths will have crossed, either in J Lines, Airfield Workshops, or 521 Hangar. 142 Entry doesn't ring any particular bells, but I certainly remember 144 very well. An absolute shower...
Longer Ron: My aircraft days are now far behind me, the railways pay better and now that I drive a desk the hours are better too. I do miss the sights, sounds, and smells though (and that was just the crewroom!). Self-reliance and "can do" are very much in demand wherever you go in the rail sector, and for those skills I am indebted entirely to the RAF.
Longer Ron: My aircraft days are now far behind me, the railways pay better and now that I drive a desk the hours are better too. I do miss the sights, sounds, and smells though (and that was just the crewroom!). Self-reliance and "can do" are very much in demand wherever you go in the rail sector, and for those skills I am indebted entirely to the RAF.
PW - yes you are spot on about the railways LOL
I know many ex techies now working with trains etc - they get paid far more than I do
Actually the crewroom was still similar until a few (phew ?) years ago - we all have to behave these days (generally speaking) - very tedious !
rgds LR
I know many ex techies now working with trains etc - they get paid far more than I do
I do miss the sights, sounds, and smells though (and that was just the crewroom!)
rgds LR
Eric - Many people are not that bothered about working on aircraft after they demob !
I guess it also depends on personal circumstances,geographical location and which company actually offers a position.
I worked for Hawker Squiddeley after I left the RAF - when that particular facility was closed down all the techie people 'bomburst' into many different new careers - not many stayed with aircraft !
I guess it also depends on personal circumstances,geographical location and which company actually offers a position.
I worked for Hawker Squiddeley after I left the RAF - when that particular facility was closed down all the techie people 'bomburst' into many different new careers - not many stayed with aircraft !
we were taught to think things out for ourselves and we were expected to be irreverent and individual.
Being shipped in to Malta as a 19 year old tested those abilities to the full. When ,later, during the move up via Sicily ,Italy etc. The number of German Aircraft found abandoned, seemingly needlessly, on airfields with what to a "brat" were minor problems reinforced belief in the superiority of the RAF front-line maintenance doctrine. Indeed , Senior was involved in getting a number of Axis aircraft back into the air for evaluation in theatre. When later working with POW Luftwaffe ground crew, the system liabilities of just having largely "box changers" in the front-line were apparent ( a comment also made by many about USAAF front-line servicing) . All well and good when you are going forwards and the logistics pipelines are in full flow - but when that went to rats.........
As you well know the stories of RAF ingenuity in individualistic " make do" engineering,based upon excellent fundamental knowledge are legion over the years.
The situation is of course very different philosophically now,with not so much room for "individual" fixes, however it is predicated on adequate logistics support which is presumed ( has) to be in place to generate enough War Goers
Senior once stated in the early 60's : " You put my generation on a Lightning,without handbooks, and we would probably , in time, work it out for ourselves."
I very much doubt if that would apply now.
Last edited by Haraka; 31st Jan 2015 at 09:33.
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Did a Locking Craft app 68-70 as a Radar fitter. Most of my energy was devoted to surviving the experience rather than learning my trade. I learnt more in the first 6 months at my first unit (Bawdsey) than in my 2 years training. Not knocking it, just remembering how utterly unprepared I was as a J/T (God I was Crap) and had to be led by the nose by a 35 year old SAC. Bless him!!
I did just enough work at Halton to graduate reasonably well - most of my spare time was either gliding/drinking/err 'socialising' .
Halton did not tell my first unit that I was going on a 6 week flying course after graduation - so I was adrift and arrived under a black cloud.
I was picked up by a bitter and twisted leccy SAC with a long distance medal LOL and banished to the Canberra OCU at the far end of the airfield.
I was also crap for the first few months but the basic knowledge was well implanted and eventually surfaced and became useful !
.Halton did not tell my first unit that I was going on a 6 week flying course after graduation - so I was adrift and arrived under a black cloud
.I was picked up by a bitter and twisted leccy SAC with a long distance medal LOL and banished to the Canberra OCU at the far end of the airfield.
I was also crap for the first few months but the basic knowledge was well implanted and eventually surfaced and became useful !
As per the 2 previous posters, I did just enough to pass out from Locking in Dec. 64, too busy going to concerts at The Colston Hall and Weston Odeon etc. I arrived at Marham all ready to go only to find that the Valiants were being broken up, that didn't do my enthusiasm much good.
In June / July 1965 I moved on to Wittering where I looked forward to working on aircraft that actually flew. I arrived on a Thursday and having booked in at the guardroom I phoned the Victor Line only to be told that I would do my arrival on the Friday and I was to report to the QRA site the following Monday. I tried to explain that other than training, I had never worked on aircraft, never mind a Victor B2R with a live Blue Steel slung underneath it !! " It's OK, you get yourself over there and we will send someone across and show you where things are". On the Monday I had a 30 min walkabout which consisted of "Green Satin is in there, that's Red Steer etc etc" I was then left for a week on my own to look after 2 armed QRA Victors, bit of a steep curve I think.
In June / July 1965 I moved on to Wittering where I looked forward to working on aircraft that actually flew. I arrived on a Thursday and having booked in at the guardroom I phoned the Victor Line only to be told that I would do my arrival on the Friday and I was to report to the QRA site the following Monday. I tried to explain that other than training, I had never worked on aircraft, never mind a Victor B2R with a live Blue Steel slung underneath it !! " It's OK, you get yourself over there and we will send someone across and show you where things are". On the Monday I had a 30 min walkabout which consisted of "Green Satin is in there, that's Red Steer etc etc" I was then left for a week on my own to look after 2 armed QRA Victors, bit of a steep curve I think.
