Typhoon Trail to Nellis.
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Typhoon Trail to Nellis.
I have just read a MOD press release about No 1(F)Sqn with Voyager deploying to Nellis. Can someone explain how it took 13 AAR prods for each aircraft during the trail? On previous ac we managed to do it with a total of 6 brackets. Even when forced to route via Larjes we only used 7 brackets. I assume that unlike the Tornado, the Typhoon transits at about FL370? Did they used Bermuda due to head winds or for another reason?
The point has already been made-13 prods seems way over the top. I would expect about 7 brackets over the 4 legs. All trails to the U.S. are via Lajes but even for the Typhoon the max level for deployments in that airspace is F280 (ie non-RVSM). I originally thought the article in the DM was just ****e reporting, it seems the source documents were crap also.
I will double check my copies of the route briefs. Where I think the error lies is in the A and B brackets so to speak. For example between Bermuda and Eglin ( under 4 hours) a Typhoon does not need to refuel twice.There would be an A and B bracket published and 2 receivers would refuel in the A and 2 in the B. Over the entire deployment I would expect the reason for the odd number is that on the first leg to it was not possible to refuel both sets of receivers only once before the abort point without needing a top up for the first pair. A plan that had each ac refuelling 13 times would be a poor one.
Have just double checked the article which definitely says each ac refuelled 13 times- I would lay money on that being half of them refuelled 6 times and the other half 7 times for the reason above. Like a lot of reporting, when you know about the subject you can usually see errors.
Have just double checked the article which definitely says each ac refuelled 13 times- I would lay money on that being half of them refuelled 6 times and the other half 7 times for the reason above. Like a lot of reporting, when you know about the subject you can usually see errors.
Last edited by vascodegama; 11th Jan 2015 at 07:31. Reason: Addition
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Vasco,
I can only agree with you. There must be something wrong with the planning or the execution. We have done many trails across the Atlantic via numerous routes. I would question why they went so far south? Was it due to available staging points?
It was quoted that the Typhoons all remained within an hour and a half of a diversion. Is this applying so civilian regulation to Military Aviation?
I also only did trails in 2 engined aircraft (never single engine, well not to start with), and desite STC regs at the time, always insisted that all ac fuel states remain such that they could divert on one engine without further AAR.
If they ever tried a Goldern Eagle 2 they would wear out the backets half way across the Pacific!
I can only agree with you. There must be something wrong with the planning or the execution. We have done many trails across the Atlantic via numerous routes. I would question why they went so far south? Was it due to available staging points?
It was quoted that the Typhoons all remained within an hour and a half of a diversion. Is this applying so civilian regulation to Military Aviation?
I also only did trails in 2 engined aircraft (never single engine, well not to start with), and desite STC regs at the time, always insisted that all ac fuel states remain such that they could divert on one engine without further AAR.
If they ever tried a Goldern Eagle 2 they would wear out the backets half way across the Pacific!
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Does '13 prods' = '13 brackets'?
I've heard of trails where the average number of prods far exceeded the total number of brackets, due to weather etc.
I would be interested to see the plan though - to compare notes.
Was it done on the MPS, AARWIN, CFPS, JUMPS, AIRPLAN or piece of string?
I've heard of trails where the average number of prods far exceeded the total number of brackets, due to weather etc.
I would be interested to see the plan though - to compare notes.
Was it done on the MPS, AARWIN, CFPS, JUMPS, AIRPLAN or piece of string?
Remaining within 90 min of a div at all times between Lajes and Bermuda will mean that the route has to take a slightly more northerly track than great circle. Also, presumably the plan has to be single hose compatible for its entirety?
Even so, unless there was some unusual constraint, 6 brackets seems rather a lot for Typhoons in 2 tank fit. Unless, as vascodegama infers, it actually means 3 x 2 for a 4-receiver 2 hose plan?
Which is what 'another' planning system suggests, assuming 1000 kg min at abort aerodromes Lajes, St Anthony and Halifax, even with 2800 kg arrival fuel at Bermuda and 85% stat met.
Or, if there was a mission planning constraint to keep the Typhoons above 5000 kg in tanks at all times before the final bracket, perhaps 4 x 2.
D-IFF_ident wrote:
I believe the geek-speak expression is ROFLMAO?
Even so, unless there was some unusual constraint, 6 brackets seems rather a lot for Typhoons in 2 tank fit. Unless, as vascodegama infers, it actually means 3 x 2 for a 4-receiver 2 hose plan?
Which is what 'another' planning system suggests, assuming 1000 kg min at abort aerodromes Lajes, St Anthony and Halifax, even with 2800 kg arrival fuel at Bermuda and 85% stat met.
Or, if there was a mission planning constraint to keep the Typhoons above 5000 kg in tanks at all times before the final bracket, perhaps 4 x 2.
D-IFF_ident wrote:
Was it done on the MPS...
Last edited by BEagle; 11th Jan 2015 at 09:54.
Happy memories of taking a Jaguar to Nellis vis Goose and Offutt in 1974. We weren't too proud to ask the pilot of the INS-equipped Jaguar for fixes as we crossed the pond.
Dunno what any of that means - I suspect "piece of string" came closest to our method 
We stayed in the Tam O'Shanter motel in downtown Las Vegas. I looked it up online a few years back and found a website where people were mourning the demolition of one of Las Vegas's "heritage" buildings. It was built c1957!
Was it done on MPS, AARWIN, CFPS, JUMPS, AIRPLAN or piece of string?
We stayed in the Tam O'Shanter motel in downtown Las Vegas. I looked it up online a few years back and found a website where people were mourning the demolition of one of Las Vegas's "heritage" buildings. It was built c1957!
Last edited by Tankertrashnav; 11th Jan 2015 at 14:18. Reason: typo
Indeed BEags-I put the plan into MPS and it came up with exactly the 7/6 contacts needed. If memory serves, even with SHARs it was only 7 brackets from Lajes to Bangor (further and a shorter range ac)!
4 Greens-the southerly routing obviously did avoid the Jetstream but had been planned long before that revealed itself; all US bound trails go South.
4 Greens-the southerly routing obviously did avoid the Jetstream but had been planned long before that revealed itself; all US bound trails go South.
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4 Greens,
I know that staging via Laajes is now AC Policy, however why so far south afterwards. The route was planned long before the Upper Winds were known.
We have previously used, Oceana, Norfolk, Seymore Johnson, Charleston, all of which were fine. Islands and Island Holding Fuel can present their own problems. Remember VC10 and Harriers!
I know that staging via Laajes is now AC Policy, however why so far south afterwards. The route was planned long before the Upper Winds were known.
We have previously used, Oceana, Norfolk, Seymore Johnson, Charleston, all of which were fine. Islands and Island Holding Fuel can present their own problems. Remember VC10 and Harriers!
Dominator
Like everything in life it's not a simple answer. There are a number of factors such as ( but not limited to) maximum leg length for FJ, availability of correct fuel, willingness of airfield to accept, fuel/payload limit on tanker (itself influenced by no of avail tankers) etc. Out Of interest , I tried to plan it on the MPS using the constraints imposed on the planners and short of going via some very cold airfields in Newfy land it didn't work.
Like everything in life it's not a simple answer. There are a number of factors such as ( but not limited to) maximum leg length for FJ, availability of correct fuel, willingness of airfield to accept, fuel/payload limit on tanker (itself influenced by no of avail tankers) etc. Out Of interest , I tried to plan it on the MPS using the constraints imposed on the planners and short of going via some very cold airfields in Newfy land it didn't work.
Anyone can do this but I might as well:
This one doesn't seem to be official but it's a bit longer:
This one doesn't seem to be official but it's a bit longer:
Last edited by t43562; 11th Jan 2015 at 13:07. Reason: Last video was wrong
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Vasco
The figure of 13 was as given by the AARC. Is this unusual, much higher than you'd expect, it appears so. If you chat to the AARC all will come clear no doubt.
My point is your comment re the quality of the reporting which simply reflects the info given after a totting up of the brackets on the route plan by the AARC.
RM
The figure of 13 was as given by the AARC. Is this unusual, much higher than you'd expect, it appears so. If you chat to the AARC all will come clear no doubt.
My point is your comment re the quality of the reporting which simply reflects the info given after a totting up of the brackets on the route plan by the AARC.
RM
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Regie,
As a person who has flown for over the past 40 years one would like to believe that the information in a MOD Press Release would be accurate. If those reporting have no knowledge of aviation they should have a "sensibility check" done on their reports.
There is nothing that looks worse and undermines credibility than inaccurate reporting. The media are meant to help not hinder. If simple facts are wrong why should any of it be believed?
As a person who has flown for over the past 40 years one would like to believe that the information in a MOD Press Release would be accurate. If those reporting have no knowledge of aviation they should have a "sensibility check" done on their reports.
There is nothing that looks worse and undermines credibility than inaccurate reporting. The media are meant to help not hinder. If simple facts are wrong why should any of it be believed?
Reggie
I have a copy of the route briefs at work and will cross check tomorrow. I am pretty sure that my interpretation of the figures is correct. If the DM and the source document said there were 13 transfers that could be one way of putting it (7 for some and 6 for the others) but per ac?! If as you say the figure is a toting up of the brackets in the route brief then there is the problem as explained earlier-not all receivers do all brackets. If the DM got it wrong that's one thing but the MOD press release should at least get it right.
I have a copy of the route briefs at work and will cross check tomorrow. I am pretty sure that my interpretation of the figures is correct. If the DM and the source document said there were 13 transfers that could be one way of putting it (7 for some and 6 for the others) but per ac?! If as you say the figure is a toting up of the brackets in the route brief then there is the problem as explained earlier-not all receivers do all brackets. If the DM got it wrong that's one thing but the MOD press release should at least get it right.
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Typhoon Trail to Nellis.
Back in the days when I was involved in Atlantic trails I remember there was usually (always?) a Nimrod providing SAR cover. What is used now and is the absence of SAR cover the reason the Southerly route is now used?
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Vasco,
Listen to regie and stop talking like you have a clue what you're on about. Or are you a bluntie in disguise?!?
Regie listed correctly: 3 brackets on leg to lajes on the two and single hose plan, 6 to Bermuda (well 5 plus a 6A) then 2 on each of the other 2 legs.
6 brackets due to the roundabout route to remain within range of Newfoundland divs. And if you've been keeping track of current events, the 300 kt ground speed into 130 kt headwinds (outside the 85% stat met) was not fun.
Jet Stream Propels Commercial Plane Across Atlantic In Record Time | IFLScience
The travelling press were correct though the articles do leave you wondering where they went to editing school. They had full access throughout the trail and were in both tankers.
The southerly route is due to it being WINTER...have you tried getting receivers airborne in snow and -20 degree temps in Newfie this time of year??
But Vegas was fun, thanks for asking
Listen to regie and stop talking like you have a clue what you're on about. Or are you a bluntie in disguise?!?
Regie listed correctly: 3 brackets on leg to lajes on the two and single hose plan, 6 to Bermuda (well 5 plus a 6A) then 2 on each of the other 2 legs.
6 brackets due to the roundabout route to remain within range of Newfoundland divs. And if you've been keeping track of current events, the 300 kt ground speed into 130 kt headwinds (outside the 85% stat met) was not fun.
Jet Stream Propels Commercial Plane Across Atlantic In Record Time | IFLScience
The travelling press were correct though the articles do leave you wondering where they went to editing school. They had full access throughout the trail and were in both tankers.
The southerly route is due to it being WINTER...have you tried getting receivers airborne in snow and -20 degree temps in Newfie this time of year??
But Vegas was fun, thanks for asking