Military fast jets and thunderstorms
Canberra B2/T4/T17 (and probably PR3 too) could be "interesting" in icing. Set and maintain 5,800 rpm at TOD, ISTR. Cannot remember what I had for breakfast; "breakfast", what's that?....................
My expierience with flying in CB´s is limitied, as i tried to avoid them as much as possible. Once was in tactical formation low level in northern germany, my flightlead was heading straight for the Cb in front with heavy rain and visible lightning. I told him I would turn around. His "no, i go for the target" was the last thing I heard from him over the radio, because shortly afterwords he got hit by lightning and turned around waggling his wings for help. All radios, radar and most of his nav stuff was gone.
I left the expierience, what hail can do to an aircraft to the test pilots. Following pic is a T-38
http://www.aviationforum.org/attachm...e-picture5.jpg
I think no sensible FJ-pilot would steer deliberately into a CB in peacetime flying, and when ending up in one would try to get out as fast as possible.
I left the expierience, what hail can do to an aircraft to the test pilots. Following pic is a T-38
http://www.aviationforum.org/attachm...e-picture5.jpg
I think no sensible FJ-pilot would steer deliberately into a CB in peacetime flying, and when ending up in one would try to get out as fast as possible.
Last edited by RetiredF4; 5th Jan 2015 at 22:15.
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Transiting back across the Adriatic early one morning (03 ish), we were met with a wall of very active CBs. My lead took the only option available...other than land sausage side...and plowed right through. We followed in one mile trail and got walloped! I felt the shudder go through the airframe and the stick buzz in my hand. Blindness lasted a few seconds, thankfully I had Gen3s on!
Both cockpits went totally dark and we were left with just the finger torches to guide our progress around the cockpit. Slowly, very slowly, the jet started coming back to life on it's own. We diverted as we could see base was being blasted by the same storm. The radios, HUD, IFF, TV's and Nav kit never restored...but at least we had some lights and the CSAS had reset. Our ATC friends at the Div had no idea we had landed until we taxied past the tower!
Both cockpits went totally dark and we were left with just the finger torches to guide our progress around the cockpit. Slowly, very slowly, the jet started coming back to life on it's own. We diverted as we could see base was being blasted by the same storm. The radios, HUD, IFF, TV's and Nav kit never restored...but at least we had some lights and the CSAS had reset. Our ATC friends at the Div had no idea we had landed until we taxied past the tower!
Last edited by O-P; 5th Jan 2015 at 21:45.
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Originally Posted by Dominator2
In the USA Air Traffic had a far more flexible approach and re-routing to avoid weather was accepted.
Emerged from the Rockies heading east in a C-152 to see black walls of CBs/Tornados at about 20nm both South and North of me. There was a clear corridor right on track. I figured I could land on a road if the 'walls' moved, but then I'd still be on the bare prairie in a tornado. I orbited for 25 minutes; the 'walls' didn't move. I bravely set off for Kansas. I landed safely, but on the drive to the motel the taxi driver pointed out all the car dealerships. They'd had golf-ball sized hail all the day before, and every car outside looked as dimpled as a golf-ball.
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Descending into Finningly in a Victor 1 in clear air between CBs got between a cloud to cloud lightning bolt. However it happened my hand and arm got thrown upwards and hit the top of the cockpit. Ended up with a badly bruised arm that kept me grounded for almost three weeks. I hate CBs and will do anything to avoid one. I recall Canberras in the 50s trying to outclimg be ITCZ. Engines suffered flameouts due to the n over root theta problem. Apparently one or two of them were never seen again. (This was crew room talk - I was flying Valiants)
Remember being in my SHAR chasing a C130 around in a bunch of CBs South of Stanley in 1982. Eventually I ran out of gas and had to go home to mum. Cloth Cock found it impossible to differentiate between CB and C130. Couldn't tell the difference between Arg and Clutter!! Boom boom!
Thread Starter
Pontifex - what is the n root over theta problem?
All I can find on the web is references to obscure tensor solutions!
EDIT:
ignore my question.
The answer is on this very site:
While there may well have been generator problems as he said, a different point of view was stated at page 34 of Sniffing and Bottling. Quote: "Engine problems were experienced in RAF Canberra WH 881 during the journey with two high-altitude flame-outs of the starboard engine; one during the Ceylon-Changi leg, 400 miles out from Changi and the other on the Townsville-Momote leg.
In both cases relights were successfully achieved on the first attempts at 17-18000 feet. Both flame-outs occurred at high altitude with high engine RPM and a low temperature and may have been the result of n/Root T surges: as the air temperature (t) drops and the RPM (n) increases the likelihood of an engine compressor surge increases and an engine surge at high altitude can result in a flame-out.
There was a dearth of Canberra engine performance data at the abnormally cold temperatures to be found at great height in the tropics. With our early Rolls Royce Avon engines if conditions were right, at cruise settings an engine without warning would surge and flame-out. It could not be relit at height and one had to come down to lower altitudes and warmer temperatures.
All I can find on the web is references to obscure tensor solutions!
EDIT:
ignore my question.
The answer is on this very site:
While there may well have been generator problems as he said, a different point of view was stated at page 34 of Sniffing and Bottling. Quote: "Engine problems were experienced in RAF Canberra WH 881 during the journey with two high-altitude flame-outs of the starboard engine; one during the Ceylon-Changi leg, 400 miles out from Changi and the other on the Townsville-Momote leg.
In both cases relights were successfully achieved on the first attempts at 17-18000 feet. Both flame-outs occurred at high altitude with high engine RPM and a low temperature and may have been the result of n/Root T surges: as the air temperature (t) drops and the RPM (n) increases the likelihood of an engine compressor surge increases and an engine surge at high altitude can result in a flame-out.
There was a dearth of Canberra engine performance data at the abnormally cold temperatures to be found at great height in the tropics. With our early Rolls Royce Avon engines if conditions were right, at cruise settings an engine without warning would surge and flame-out. It could not be relit at height and one had to come down to lower altitudes and warmer temperatures.
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Now, was it that book where he mentions the ADF needle pointing at lightning flashe
I learned more about flying from those two books than any tome by AFE or Thom. Gann's book should be mandatory reading for anyone who wishes to fly, in any type of aircraft.
In the absence of visual clues only time at night in the Hastings you were aware of thunderstorm activity was when St Elmo's fire appeared round the windscreen and the ADFs went walkies.
Had two lightning strikes in the C130K . One on the way back from Kiev out of a clear sky. Huge bang and flash and much clattering noise. This was the broken end of the wire HF ae banging on the wing and fuselage. We diverted to Bro where the G/E checked for damage and removed the errant wire.
We then flew home to Lyneham.
Had two lightning strikes in the C130K . One on the way back from Kiev out of a clear sky. Huge bang and flash and much clattering noise. This was the broken end of the wire HF ae banging on the wing and fuselage. We diverted to Bro where the G/E checked for damage and removed the errant wire.
We then flew home to Lyneham.
I was pax in the back of a Herc descending into Sarajevo in about 93 when we were hit by lightning. There was a huge bang and flash in the cabin and we just assumed we had been hit by a SAM. When we landed, we found that the strike had hit the tail, gone right through the fuselage, and blown the entire nose off the front leaving the weather radar exposed. I believe the crew then flew it straight back to Ancona as there was no possibility to leave it on the apron at Sarajevo.
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[QUOTE]Interesting ROG - and you touch on the reason for my question.
An ex F-16 driver in an Airbus heading quickly towards a line of CBs...
Surely he couldn't have fallen back on military practises or procedures in a moment of stress - he had 6,000 hours on type, 20,000 or so I think in total?
I am probably drawing a very long bow and on the wrong track entirely but was interested to see how bad weather was handled in the fast jet world./QUOTE]
An ex F-16 driver in an Airbus heading quickly towards a line of CBs...
Surely he couldn't have fallen back on military practises or procedures in a moment of stress - he had 6,000 hours on type, 20,000 or so I think in total?
I am probably drawing a very long bow and on the wrong track entirely but was interested to see how bad weather was handled in the fast jet world./QUOTE]
Peering out of the window of Base Ops at Wright-Patt one day, it was clear that rather nasty weather was heading our way...
"I really don't like the look of that big black bastard!" I called over to the crew, who were taking an age to plan the next leg. At which there was an ominous rumbling noise, followed by "What's that you say, boy?". Turning round, I could see that the question came from a USAF C-130 nav who looked somewhat like an ebony cliff wrapped in a flight suit. "Err - that thing over there", I stammered, pointing at the cloud he hadn't seen. "Holy sheehit, you an' me both, man. Guys, we ain't goin' nowhere!" he told the rest of his crew. So we all had coffee and and doughnuts whilst all hell raged outside for about 30 min or so!
Only idiots disrespect thunderstorms!
"I really don't like the look of that big black bastard!" I called over to the crew, who were taking an age to plan the next leg. At which there was an ominous rumbling noise, followed by "What's that you say, boy?". Turning round, I could see that the question came from a USAF C-130 nav who looked somewhat like an ebony cliff wrapped in a flight suit. "Err - that thing over there", I stammered, pointing at the cloud he hadn't seen. "Holy sheehit, you an' me both, man. Guys, we ain't goin' nowhere!" he told the rest of his crew. So we all had coffee and and doughnuts whilst all hell raged outside for about 30 min or so!
Only idiots disrespect thunderstorms!
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Mighty Fighting 'Fin' Mk3, Mid 90's, Day Pairs T/O during a Typical 'TACEVAL' type Ex. Climb IMC through some properly rubbish Wx, then at about 25K still IMC... BANG!! Lead struck, jumped to us:
In through Radome, Out via Tail.
Lost: CSAS (Mech Mode), Radar Fried, Radios (But came back), 1 INU Dumped, HUD (But came back) and Main Computer (But again reset). Overall a poor place to be. Leader was similar. IMC close formation in very bumpy air with 2 'Mech Mode' Tonkas is NOT Fun! I chose, despite losing the radios, to breakout, and do our own thing! (Probably better than a mid air!)
CSAS reset through TRNG about 10 mins later, and a v nervous Fg Off put the beast back on the ground. Top of Fin resembled a Comedy Exploding Cigar!!
Interestingly, we were RAD STBY (Close Form) and the lead was in full search FMICW (So Won't 'See' Wx), rather than Pulse or Short Pulse, looking for cells...... Ho Hum, Tactics over sense I guess!
Learned respect for TS from that!
Advo
In through Radome, Out via Tail.
Lost: CSAS (Mech Mode), Radar Fried, Radios (But came back), 1 INU Dumped, HUD (But came back) and Main Computer (But again reset). Overall a poor place to be. Leader was similar. IMC close formation in very bumpy air with 2 'Mech Mode' Tonkas is NOT Fun! I chose, despite losing the radios, to breakout, and do our own thing! (Probably better than a mid air!)
CSAS reset through TRNG about 10 mins later, and a v nervous Fg Off put the beast back on the ground. Top of Fin resembled a Comedy Exploding Cigar!!
Interestingly, we were RAD STBY (Close Form) and the lead was in full search FMICW (So Won't 'See' Wx), rather than Pulse or Short Pulse, looking for cells...... Ho Hum, Tactics over sense I guess!
Learned respect for TS from that!
Advo
Last edited by advocatusDIABOLI; 7th Jan 2015 at 16:50.
Leaders who share....not always a good thing is it? 
I was likewise well impressed with the way (almost) everything reset. Hats off to the designers, and I think there's a test shed at Boscombe isn't there?
I was likewise well impressed with the way (almost) everything reset. Hats off to the designers, and I think there's a test shed at Boscombe isn't there?
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Further to ROG’s message #6, I did a tour mostly on Canberra B15 on 45 Sqn at Tengah in the early 1960s. Absolutely no drama.
The Intertropical Front was always doing its business somewhere around. Even by day the lightning would tell you where were the active cells. At night it was most exciting. The real issues were when you had to operate at low level in the very heavy rain, or if you were transporting a VIP to some washout destination.
We had one pilot who worried his crew by accruing an abnormal record of high-level single (and occasional double) flame-outs. That did not happen to me, which I attribute to almost never interfering with the engine settings once I had got to height. I did quite a few airtests, which usually involved looking for the N√T flame-out – always by day, in clear airspace.
However confident you became, you always knew that your Canberra could have you if it wanted. In the context of the present thread, there was another first-tour pilot who trained with me at Bassingbourne. He went onto B16s with 6 Sqn in Cyprus. We would both have packed in a lot of experience, as our equivalent tours were coming to an end in the summer of 1964. At that point he lost his fight with a storm over Khartoum. There were two in the back. WJ771, if anyone is interested.
The Intertropical Front was always doing its business somewhere around. Even by day the lightning would tell you where were the active cells. At night it was most exciting. The real issues were when you had to operate at low level in the very heavy rain, or if you were transporting a VIP to some washout destination.
We had one pilot who worried his crew by accruing an abnormal record of high-level single (and occasional double) flame-outs. That did not happen to me, which I attribute to almost never interfering with the engine settings once I had got to height. I did quite a few airtests, which usually involved looking for the N√T flame-out – always by day, in clear airspace.
However confident you became, you always knew that your Canberra could have you if it wanted. In the context of the present thread, there was another first-tour pilot who trained with me at Bassingbourne. He went onto B16s with 6 Sqn in Cyprus. We would both have packed in a lot of experience, as our equivalent tours were coming to an end in the summer of 1964. At that point he lost his fight with a storm over Khartoum. There were two in the back. WJ771, if anyone is interested.
Canberra PR7 max RPM 7950. Reduce by 15/1000ft above 30,000, reduce by 20/degree below -60 IOAT. This becomes rather tiresome when you're at 50,000 and -80. It will quit if you exceed these limits.
In 1959, operating out of Eastleigh, in between not finishing the Kenya survey, we had an occasional task of getting happy snaps of all the little strips in East Africa. Cruise climbing at about 49,000 above a layer of cirrus. Top of it started to bubble up as the CBs pushed through. Severely limited on RPM by temperature. Bit of chop in one of the bumps and the port engine quit. Poor nav wondered what was happening as he couldn't hear the intercomm over the static and heavy rain and hail.
Turned out to sea and eventually came into a clear hole at 10,000. Relit successfully. We were about 50 miles east of Dar es Salaam. Descended to 500 to get below cloud with sea fog below. Crept in toward Dar NDB with the ADF pointing at the CBs most of the time. Quite pleased to get on the ground. Not much paint left on the leading edges. Spent rest of career trying to avoid CBs, not always successfully.
In 1959, operating out of Eastleigh, in between not finishing the Kenya survey, we had an occasional task of getting happy snaps of all the little strips in East Africa. Cruise climbing at about 49,000 above a layer of cirrus. Top of it started to bubble up as the CBs pushed through. Severely limited on RPM by temperature. Bit of chop in one of the bumps and the port engine quit. Poor nav wondered what was happening as he couldn't hear the intercomm over the static and heavy rain and hail.
Turned out to sea and eventually came into a clear hole at 10,000. Relit successfully. We were about 50 miles east of Dar es Salaam. Descended to 500 to get below cloud with sea fog below. Crept in toward Dar NDB with the ADF pointing at the CBs most of the time. Quite pleased to get on the ground. Not much paint left on the leading edges. Spent rest of career trying to avoid CBs, not always successfully.
