SDSR 15
What happens if you want to deploy some of these shared NATO MPA on an operation that some NATO nations don't want to participate in?
Of course, the linked article deals with a European rather than a NATO air force. I dare say the former would be harder to countenance for many than the latter, perhaps.
Mel
There have been issues in the past. Some nations have blocked personnel from flying on some operations. The great thing about having your own force which is a 'contribution in kind' is it can be used for national operations when required.
There have been issues in the past. Some nations have blocked personnel from flying on some operations. The great thing about having your own force which is a 'contribution in kind' is it can be used for national operations when required.
I've even heard anecdotally of Turkish and Greek crew members having to be placed on different sorties when certain international sensitivities have flared up. An E3 doesn't function too well if one member of the crew doesn't want to talk to the other! 
LJ
LJ
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Angels 20 and climbing
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting Cranwell SDSR debate here from the RAeS... (with the addition of a certain Lewis Page as one of the panelists to stir things up a bit....)
Royal Aeronautical Society | Insight Blog | SDSR 2015 ? Issues, options and implications
Royal Aeronautical Society | Insight Blog | SDSR 2015 ? Issues, options and implications
Very interesting link. I really don't know how Lewis Page feels that dumping Tornado AND Typhoon and leasing F-18Es would have been a better idea in SDSR10, and now he advocates not developing Typhoon's air-ground capability. With the GR.4 outward bound how can he justify that?
Martin,
Because the man is a blithering idiot, offering a very narrow and tactical "junior officer perspective" - their words not mine - I'd be irritated if I were a junior officer being compared to Page.
He wants to strip all strike and attack from the RAF and hand it to the RN to be done using TLAM, leaving the RAF with I assume just air defence, which when HMS White Elephant (yes I'm being flippant) comes in to service, he would no doubt try and bag the AD capability as well.
In advocating that, he misses the point about airpower for effect across the spectrum of operations. Now I've been out of the recce game for a while, but I'm not sure how a TLAM would contribute to that capability. And if I were PBI on the front lines, I'd be far happier with several tonnes of aeroplane overhead that I could call on as required rather than a one shot TLAM. I could go on, but you no doubt get the point far better than he does.
Because the man is a blithering idiot, offering a very narrow and tactical "junior officer perspective" - their words not mine - I'd be irritated if I were a junior officer being compared to Page.
He wants to strip all strike and attack from the RAF and hand it to the RN to be done using TLAM, leaving the RAF with I assume just air defence, which when HMS White Elephant (yes I'm being flippant) comes in to service, he would no doubt try and bag the AD capability as well.
In advocating that, he misses the point about airpower for effect across the spectrum of operations. Now I've been out of the recce game for a while, but I'm not sure how a TLAM would contribute to that capability. And if I were PBI on the front lines, I'd be far happier with several tonnes of aeroplane overhead that I could call on as required rather than a one shot TLAM. I could go on, but you no doubt get the point far better than he does.
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Cheltenham
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is it that UKIP does propose, Party Animal - there is very little on their web site other than a couple of vague and ambiguous statements to the effect that they will resource fully our military assets? I don't suppose that any party would actually say that they will NOT resource fully our military assets! It would be nice if just one party would come out and make some specific and unambiguous policy statements if only "pour encourager les autres". Right now, we have nothing more than weasel words, evasion and obfuscation from all the parties. Correction: all the parties except those that think that defence can be achieved by everyone sitting round a camp fire singing Kumbaya.
Last edited by Bratman91; 13th Mar 2015 at 18:40. Reason: Identify poster being Replied to
A strange debate from the RAeS. I read Lewis Page's book, Lions, Donkeys and Dinosaurs several years ago and thought that it would be an uncomfortable read for our military commanders. While I don't agree with all his points his basic argument that defence spending is poorly targeted and inefficient is hard to refute. I hope that SDSR addresses this.
I will conceded that point kintyred, but unfortunately the validity of his point is lost in the parochialism oozing out of almost every word he utters or writes to an extent that undermines his credibility. I was always left with the impression that his idea of more efficient spending is to spend more on the Navy.
You're right Melchy, but he does throw some rocks at his own service in his book. And as one who has light blue coursing through my veins, there is much that embarrasses me about my own service. I think that the fundamental problems facing all three services are an unwillingness to face some harsh truths about themselves and a lack of respect for those who pay the piper!
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If NATO can run an AWCS operation I can't see why a joint force of P-8's wouldn't work
Split the costs between UK, Norway, Denmark, NL, Spain & Portugual - the belgians never pay for anything and the French..................
planty of bases along the ATlantic seaboard
they don't have to be at every one all the time and what ever you think it's better than what we all have collectively right now
Split the costs between UK, Norway, Denmark, NL, Spain & Portugual - the belgians never pay for anything and the French..................
planty of bases along the ATlantic seaboard
they don't have to be at every one all the time and what ever you think it's better than what we all have collectively right now
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agreed Harry; that way we'd achieve a far more impressive force that the sum of individual national contributions (zero, currently in our case obviously) ...but with the crucial caveat it must be a NATO and not a Euro force!!
Surely it must irritate more than a little that as an island nation we even have to consider that?
It's all well and good saying let's throw our hat in the ring with a NATO or Euro force, but what if the worst hypothetical scenario happens and we suddenly find ourselves facing a hostile force alone, the rest of our partners having fallen or capitulated? Are we then relying on the channel as a defensive measure? Or maybe hoping for a spot of congestion on the motorway outside Dover to slow the enemy up in time for the Home Guard to get together?
I'm sorry, but when it's backs to the wall, there's only one thing you can rely on to safeguard your own interests and that's yourself. Given the links between the MPA fleet and the strategic deterrent, do you really want the safeguarding of that in someone else's hands?
It's all well and good saying let's throw our hat in the ring with a NATO or Euro force, but what if the worst hypothetical scenario happens and we suddenly find ourselves facing a hostile force alone, the rest of our partners having fallen or capitulated? Are we then relying on the channel as a defensive measure? Or maybe hoping for a spot of congestion on the motorway outside Dover to slow the enemy up in time for the Home Guard to get together?
I'm sorry, but when it's backs to the wall, there's only one thing you can rely on to safeguard your own interests and that's yourself. Given the links between the MPA fleet and the strategic deterrent, do you really want the safeguarding of that in someone else's hands?
Oran, 1940
Churchill?s Sinking of the French Fleet (July 3, 1940)
Anyway, the chance of getting money out of Spain & Portugal right now is about zero. They'd probably welcome Russian subs as long as they promised to spent a few dollars whilst in port.
Churchill?s Sinking of the French Fleet (July 3, 1940)
Anyway, the chance of getting money out of Spain & Portugal right now is about zero. They'd probably welcome Russian subs as long as they promised to spent a few dollars whilst in port.