Ex military pilots formate A350s
Even in close it can get scary if the leader is a plonker.
I was on a JP refresher course at the time, so went along to rubberneck this balbo from a jump seat in one of the Jetstreams. Once all 12 were joined up, we set off towards the IP only for the lead Jetstream captain to announce that he needed to lose time, so would fly an orbit.....at 30° AoB! The Dominie box on the outside coped OK, but the poor sods on the inside were almost on the buffet and had a heck of a job keeping in position. After the flypast, the inside Dominies departed with the comment "Be in your office when we land!" to the Jetstream leader. Not happy bunnies!
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The pictures are from a photo shoot just prior to our final 6 ship flypast. Photos by Mr Geoff Lee. Final Flypast on 20/1/11 at CWL with CinC in the formation.
I understand that 4 Doms may be heading to Humberside, possibly by air, for use as engineer trainers.
I understand that 4 Doms may be heading to Humberside, possibly by air, for use as engineer trainers.
Quality Formation Leaders are a very valuable asset. In times gone by, many would have experienced close formation as an everyday requirement of the job, and most would be well skilled.
OAP
OAP
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by Beagle
For the 1977 Silver Jellybean,
Great fun had by all. 'Twas the leader of the second block that were at fault although Tony Woodward, overall leader, initially got the flak but was absolved from blame I recall.Apoogies for the image size.
Must find my slides of a 56-ship JP formation at the Towers in the early. Must have been the rehearsal for Grad flypast on which I flew as pax, the only time in the RHS of a JP. I recall we could not log the flight time as it would screw the training stats!
I recall we could not log the flight time as it would screw the training stats!
Any time that anyone is in this predicament, log the trip but do not enter the flight time in one of the totalled columns.
This way you have the date, what you did and with whom, where you went - it provides a record for you, but this doesn't "screw the training stats"!
At the age of 66 and no longer flying, I get some enjoyment of sometimes flicking through my logbook and looking at the pics!
Any time that anyone is in this predicament, log the trip but do not enter the flight time in one of the totalled columns.
This way you have the date, what you did and with whom, where you went - it provides a record for you, but this doesn't "screw the training stats"!
At the age of 66 and no longer flying, I get some enjoyment of sometimes flicking through my logbook and looking at the pics!
but you are NOT in close formation.
Actually Dominator2, flat turns can be used in close formation when flying echelon! Often used at Deci on recovery in fours! The leader just has to remember to turn away from the rest of the formation!
Actually Dominator2, flat turns can be used in close formation when flying echelon! Often used at Deci on recovery in fours! The leader just has to remember to turn away from the rest of the formation!
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Newt,
You missed my point. I was saying that flat turns are not optimum for large ac, particularly with more than 2 ac, even more so if flown cross cockpit!!!!
I spent 3 years teaching the GAF flat turns in the F4 and so I am very familiar with the benefits and techniques of how to fly them properly. "Looking Good in the Closed Pattern " is one of the most important parts of any sortie.
I must admit that trying to flat turn 9 at initials at Deci was rather adventerous but then it was Battle of Britain Day!
You missed my point. I was saying that flat turns are not optimum for large ac, particularly with more than 2 ac, even more so if flown cross cockpit!!!!
I spent 3 years teaching the GAF flat turns in the F4 and so I am very familiar with the benefits and techniques of how to fly them properly. "Looking Good in the Closed Pattern " is one of the most important parts of any sortie.I must admit that trying to flat turn 9 at initials at Deci was rather adventerous but then it was Battle of Britain Day!
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recceguy...
She is just doing acceptance flights at Airbus - which some people call test flights. She wouldn't have been called for the display of the 350s ....
ETPS - a private business now with Qinetiq - is offering abbreviated tailor-made courses (one or thwo months) for production factory pilots. Not much to do with the full one-year TP course - but even after a two-days course, you can get from them the badge and keys Handler....
Being a woman she had some rules being relaxed for her, as is often the case.
Tester78,
Well said!
So far I have restrained from posting on this thread but have been saddened that so many ignorant and, from the likes of recceguy, offensive comments have been made following an excellent video of some very professional and impressive flying; thankfully some sensible remarks have been posted also. Congratulations to all Airbus in putting this formation together and filming it so well.
L
Well said!
So far I have restrained from posting on this thread but have been saddened that so many ignorant and, from the likes of recceguy, offensive comments have been made following an excellent video of some very professional and impressive flying; thankfully some sensible remarks have been posted also. Congratulations to all Airbus in putting this formation together and filming it so well.
L
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But we aren't talking about tactical low level formations Ken, we are talking about flying close formation in large aircraft. Looking at your list of "I've flown close formation in" there doesn't appear to be any large aircraft, so I'm not sure you are qualified to comment. Flying close formation in any aircraft means the wing men manoeuvre in height in a turn and that doesn't matter whether you are in a fast jet, small multi or large multi - the techniques are the same! Take it from someone who has flown close formation against a large number of different types.
Regarding this formation of A350s, they do not seem to me to be a close formation at all and I do not believe they were flown in the manner of a close formation.
As for your Bear Foxtrot experience, imagine if you had been at the controls of another Bear Foxtrot in that formation turn. Could it have been done? And if you attempted it, would you be here to talk about it?
As for the various replies concerning dissimilar aircraft formation flights, that is NOT what I was talking about. I was specifically talking about a large formation of tactical transports at low level during a run-in for a large formation airdrop. Those are not done (at least in USAF) with dissimilar aircraft. I cannot speak for how the RAF does it.
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Formidable !
Magnifique, ça !
Magnifique, ça !
..... and led by Frank Chapman, a Brit!
RAF 1980–1996, which included four years on exchange with USAF (F-16) and ETPS.
A350 XWB Project Lead Test Pilot.
Extract from an interview about the flight:
How much planning went into the five-formation flight?
CHAPMAN:
The most difficult part of organizing was getting 5 prototype aircraft ready for flight together.
I chose ex-military pilots as they would be very familiar with formation flying (as it is normal military procedure).
The preparation and briefing was done by me and required some thought and planning, but no more. The briefing had to be clearly understood by everyone, so the preparation for this part was critical. Everyone has to know exactly what to do in a large formation so that there is no misunderstanding.
We also had to liaise with the photo chase aircraft that carried not only the photographer but also one of our ex-military Test Pilots. They were the “Whipper In,” which meant he could call the fine adjustments to formation position over the radio to ensure that we were all in the correct position.
Based on the vantage point of the photos and video, the planes look extremely close to each other. How did Airbus ensure a safe flight for everyone?
CHAPMAN:
The aircraft look close but this is perfectly normal formation flight and is perfectly safe, provided a carefully prepared briefing is made.
If you look at Air-to Air refueling, the aircraft are much closer together and there is still no issue.
CHAPMAN:
The most difficult part of organizing was getting 5 prototype aircraft ready for flight together.
I chose ex-military pilots as they would be very familiar with formation flying (as it is normal military procedure).
The preparation and briefing was done by me and required some thought and planning, but no more. The briefing had to be clearly understood by everyone, so the preparation for this part was critical. Everyone has to know exactly what to do in a large formation so that there is no misunderstanding.
We also had to liaise with the photo chase aircraft that carried not only the photographer but also one of our ex-military Test Pilots. They were the “Whipper In,” which meant he could call the fine adjustments to formation position over the radio to ensure that we were all in the correct position.
Based on the vantage point of the photos and video, the planes look extremely close to each other. How did Airbus ensure a safe flight for everyone?
CHAPMAN:
The aircraft look close but this is perfectly normal formation flight and is perfectly safe, provided a carefully prepared briefing is made.
If you look at Air-to Air refueling, the aircraft are much closer together and there is still no issue.
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Cambs RAeS lecture
Folks following this thread may be interested in attending the Cambridge Branch of the RAeS Sir Arthur Marshall Lecture on 5th March.
Peter Chandler the A350 test pilot will deliver his lecture at Churchill College, Cambridge starting at 18.00. According to the information I have there is a drinks reception scheduled for 19.30
I am sure folks will have some questions about this formation.
I hope to make it if SWMBO will sign my chit.
Peter Chandler the A350 test pilot will deliver his lecture at Churchill College, Cambridge starting at 18.00. According to the information I have there is a drinks reception scheduled for 19.30
I am sure folks will have some questions about this formation.
I hope to make it if SWMBO will sign my chit.
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I watched some ex-RAF heavy pilots (or was that some heavy ex-RAF pilots...) fly some close formation in a couple of Airbus twinjets last week. Would you believe, they got close enough the aircraft actually touched each other? About a dozen times!
Sadly no publically available pictures.
Sadly no publically available pictures.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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KenV
A point you might like to consider is that the sideways and upward view a pilot has through a side window is dependent on the distance the pilot’s eye is from the window and how much the pilot’s eye is below the top of the window.
Could it be that these aspects are better in an A350 than in the types you flew?
A point you might like to consider is that the sideways and upward view a pilot has through a side window is dependent on the distance the pilot’s eye is from the window and how much the pilot’s eye is below the top of the window.
Could it be that these aspects are better in an A350 than in the types you flew?