OP 'TIL WE DROP
Join Date: Jun 2001
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What an awful article. I really can't believe anyone on here is getting vexed about such pish. Oh, wait. Yes I can.
Night shift have complained about the food on every single base I've served on. It doesn't matter where in the world we serve. If some AVM made a cheesy demonstration of handing out rations then he needs a slap for not sorting things to make them work. As for the hospital comment - there were hospitals at the operational locations because troops were coming back with bits removed.
Night shift have complained about the food on every single base I've served on. It doesn't matter where in the world we serve. If some AVM made a cheesy demonstration of handing out rations then he needs a slap for not sorting things to make them work. As for the hospital comment - there were hospitals at the operational locations because troops were coming back with bits removed.
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I liked the hidden nugget about the quality of engines coming from RR/BAe. Bang on the money, the product coming from them was shocking. Wasn't unusual to go through 3-4 engines on an engine change in KAF.
When I first started on Tornado, the mean time between bay visits was 176 hours. Post single crystal HPT, this went up to 400-500 hours. When I found myself back on Tornado as a civvy a few years ago, some engines were exceeding 1000 hours between shop visits. Just after that, the RAF RB199 bays were closed and work transferred to Bristol. I actually declined a temp job offer at Bristol getting the RR guys up to speed.
As far as you can say here.... what sort of problems are the sqns suffering with the RB199 these days?
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Having crap rats is part and parcel of life sometimes, although in fairness so is complaining about it. But why did the SNCO complain to the AVM about it.. didn't he have a FS, WO or JEngo to approach to address things? And did no one use some common sense, initiative and guile and work around the problem and why was the discontent and expectation not managed correctly?
20+ years ago, an army cook presented us with roasted marmite basted spuds, beef wellington and all the trimmings. Delicious. I can't remember how far into the middle of nowhere we were, but I do remember there wasn't electricity or a roof, it was minus 6 degrees, there was 3 feet of snow and we were being mortared.. that was sustained for months as well. And that wasn't sepia 19canteen.. it was post internet, awareness and 'human rights'.
If the problem is bad leadership and poor admin, simple.. b0llock someone and then address it.. why was this even allowed to be an issue as said AVM visited? But if the problem is a genuine financial one, then sorry.. but welcome to austerity - so let's see the SNCOs leading by example when times are hard (and sorry, but ropey sarnies isn't exactly 'hard' is it?).
As a punishment, at Aki, we used to have to leave the block to dig in on the sqn and live in a trench for two weeks on compo (".. act like animals and I'll treat you like animals" WO Brian Deeley - brilliant times!). I accept this is 2014, the BBC will always look for a human interest angle and civvy street offers increasingly attractive options but come on. I don't consider myself to be too old and past it but if the hardest part of the job is enduring cheese sarnies?
20+ years ago, an army cook presented us with roasted marmite basted spuds, beef wellington and all the trimmings. Delicious. I can't remember how far into the middle of nowhere we were, but I do remember there wasn't electricity or a roof, it was minus 6 degrees, there was 3 feet of snow and we were being mortared.. that was sustained for months as well. And that wasn't sepia 19canteen.. it was post internet, awareness and 'human rights'.
If the problem is bad leadership and poor admin, simple.. b0llock someone and then address it.. why was this even allowed to be an issue as said AVM visited? But if the problem is a genuine financial one, then sorry.. but welcome to austerity - so let's see the SNCOs leading by example when times are hard (and sorry, but ropey sarnies isn't exactly 'hard' is it?).
As a punishment, at Aki, we used to have to leave the block to dig in on the sqn and live in a trench for two weeks on compo (".. act like animals and I'll treat you like animals" WO Brian Deeley - brilliant times!). I accept this is 2014, the BBC will always look for a human interest angle and civvy street offers increasingly attractive options but come on. I don't consider myself to be too old and past it but if the hardest part of the job is enduring cheese sarnies?
To my mind there are a few issues here. Firstly, there is the fact that SHADER has commenced fairly unexpectedly, and as such, will take time to get the investment of time, accommodation and facilities to get to the BSN or KAF standard - lets not forget KAF was hardly a pinnacle of luxury when it opened.
I think there is an issue that while we work out the medium term campaign aspirations, objectives, and what our laydown will be to support this, we'll see more funds going in.
Then we have to remember that not only do people like to moan, often about even what is seemingly a good setup, but also that its not always based on reality. I've been extremely close to SHADER recently and struggled to find much that I agreed with in the letter.
Finally, there is the danger that the BAS/BSN/KAF setup is one that many of our more junior people have become used to. I sense a growing awareness that we've brought a lot of people in since TELIC started who perhaps are used to deploying, but not deploying austerely as has been done in the past (I don't mean that as an insult). We need to recognise that HERRICK/TELIC were perhaps the exception, and that while we can expect reasonable facilities when the campaign is established and on a steady state, we equally can't always expect to have access to the Ice Hockey rink and Pizza Huts of KAF every time.
There is an expectation management issue here - yes wifi is good, and yes we all want to get better accommodation and welfare fixed for people, but in an era where we will often find ourselves operating at short notice in odd places, I think we have to be better at mentally preparing our people that no there isn't always going to be an EFI or PX to go to at the start.
I fully get people are tired, and god knows the GR4 force has worked hard, but given this campaign is a few months old, that we're still bedding things in and that a lot is changing very rapidly, I think we're perhaps expecting too much too quickly for my taste.
I think there is an issue that while we work out the medium term campaign aspirations, objectives, and what our laydown will be to support this, we'll see more funds going in.
Then we have to remember that not only do people like to moan, often about even what is seemingly a good setup, but also that its not always based on reality. I've been extremely close to SHADER recently and struggled to find much that I agreed with in the letter.
Finally, there is the danger that the BAS/BSN/KAF setup is one that many of our more junior people have become used to. I sense a growing awareness that we've brought a lot of people in since TELIC started who perhaps are used to deploying, but not deploying austerely as has been done in the past (I don't mean that as an insult). We need to recognise that HERRICK/TELIC were perhaps the exception, and that while we can expect reasonable facilities when the campaign is established and on a steady state, we equally can't always expect to have access to the Ice Hockey rink and Pizza Huts of KAF every time.
There is an expectation management issue here - yes wifi is good, and yes we all want to get better accommodation and welfare fixed for people, but in an era where we will often find ourselves operating at short notice in odd places, I think we have to be better at mentally preparing our people that no there isn't always going to be an EFI or PX to go to at the start.
I fully get people are tired, and god knows the GR4 force has worked hard, but given this campaign is a few months old, that we're still bedding things in and that a lot is changing very rapidly, I think we're perhaps expecting too much too quickly for my taste.
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I'm not advocating living in a water filled, rat infested trench! I'm just asking if a certain amount of service robustness has been lost. Society may change but the act of war hasn't really changed much over the past 2000 years. There is hardship and objectionable activities have to be undertaken in inhospitable places. Cyprus shift work isn't exactly in that category I would suggest.
The problem is, the RAF doesn't do itself any favours with lines like "so disgusted by the 'cheese sandwiches' offered as meals to the night shift" and ""the costs and quality of the catering and retail support are a disgrace".
They are the sort of lines you would expect to hear from a bunch of civil servants not military personnel on operations.
If it gets to the stage where an AVM has to intervene then the junior leadership (Sqn Ldr and below and SNCOs) has failed.
Are these same people expecting a medal too? Cant have it both ways.
The problem is, the RAF doesn't do itself any favours with lines like "so disgusted by the 'cheese sandwiches' offered as meals to the night shift" and ""the costs and quality of the catering and retail support are a disgrace".
They are the sort of lines you would expect to hear from a bunch of civil servants not military personnel on operations.
If it gets to the stage where an AVM has to intervene then the junior leadership (Sqn Ldr and below and SNCOs) has failed.
Are these same people expecting a medal too? Cant have it both ways.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: 4 Civvy Street. Nowhere-near-a-base. The Shires.
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Wg13
You are kidding?
The average RAF type is more robust now than at any time in the last 60 years.
After the post war Flying Club years (that went on till the 90's), we now have a (smaller) cadre of people who are fitter than ever and, yes, hardened by over a decade of constant conflict.
There are always people who moan about their lot, but the majority in the Service put up and keep at it, and they are fine people who can do without the old school putting down their efforts.
I'm just asking if a certain amount of service robustness has been lost.
The average RAF type is more robust now than at any time in the last 60 years.
After the post war Flying Club years (that went on till the 90's), we now have a (smaller) cadre of people who are fitter than ever and, yes, hardened by over a decade of constant conflict.
There are always people who moan about their lot, but the majority in the Service put up and keep at it, and they are fine people who can do without the old school putting down their efforts.
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Geardown, that's great if you're writing a job spec for someone working at Aldi or the Police Service. Service personnel join knowing that they go on operations (they certainly do in the Army anyway) and they also know that going on operations can bring certain hardships. The 'expeditionary' nature of SHADER may mean that things aint going to be like living on a station in the UK. We are not on about treating people like ****e, merely hinting that lower management has failed and those that chose to go public maybe need their expectations managed somewhat. Is it because they thought 'ah, we're in Akrotiri -sunshine posting!' but the reality is they are there to deliver effect on an operation and cant nip down to nipple beach for a brandy sour?
Which sqn was it that hit the news down a local town in Italy not that long ago?
Jimlad, totally agree.
Which sqn was it that hit the news down a local town in Italy not that long ago?
Jimlad, totally agree.
I don't really see asking for a hot meal during a 12-14 hour night shift maintaining a decrepit under resourced aircraft as particularly demanding nor luxurious. Especially when due to shift timings and mess opening hours it is often the only meal the nightshift can get.
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Geardown,
I don't think the connection with either could be argued with any sense of certainty. You have good men well managed, trained and focused and the capacity for rigour gets greater in the same environment than it might for those poorly lead and motivated.
I agree with Downsizer too - I'm amazed that something that simple and straightforward wasn't available on a unit of that size, with all those facilities. Even if the chain didn't provide it (and I'm surprised), why did the troops not address it amongst themselves? And does the RAF not even have hotlocks anymore?
Camelspyder
Agreed!
If you treat people badly they do not work for you. Give them a good standard and they will.
I agree with Downsizer too - I'm amazed that something that simple and straightforward wasn't available on a unit of that size, with all those facilities. Even if the chain didn't provide it (and I'm surprised), why did the troops not address it amongst themselves? And does the RAF not even have hotlocks anymore?
Camelspyder
.. we now have a (smaller) cadre of people who are fitter than ever and, yes, hardened by over a decade of constant conflict.
There are always people who moan about their lot, but the majority in the Service put up and keep at it, and they are fine people..
There are always people who moan about their lot, but the majority in the Service put up and keep at it, and they are fine people..
Vendee
I'm not a sootie so I don't profess to be an expert, but I did see a lot of carbon seal changes, continual surges on climatic runs, and engine after engine being rejected. Sorry I can't provide more detail, I had enough issues of my own...
As far as you can say here.... what sort of problems are the sqns suffering with the RB199 these days?
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Akrotiri is a regular RAF station and should have all the facilities of one. More to the point, it is in effect our aircraft carrier in the eastern Mediterranean, where ops to small wars are to be expected, therefore it should have a hospital.
As far as cuts are concerned, yes in this country we let the armed services go to hell when we aren't being attacked at home. When we are attacked at home we panic and spend money on everything.
However in today's world, if these politicians (any party) want to use our services overseas, they MUST find the money and the conditions and aircraft must be totally up to standard.
The Air Force isn't the army. The Air Force has very expensive aeroplanes and it has highly trained support staff who shouldn't be expected to rough it like a soldier at the front. Today, you just won't get people to do that and the quicker that is understood the better for everyone.
Akrotiri really is our third aircraft carrier - and the only one operational at the moment, it should be a first class base.
As far as cuts are concerned, yes in this country we let the armed services go to hell when we aren't being attacked at home. When we are attacked at home we panic and spend money on everything.
However in today's world, if these politicians (any party) want to use our services overseas, they MUST find the money and the conditions and aircraft must be totally up to standard.
The Air Force isn't the army. The Air Force has very expensive aeroplanes and it has highly trained support staff who shouldn't be expected to rough it like a soldier at the front. Today, you just won't get people to do that and the quicker that is understood the better for everyone.
Akrotiri really is our third aircraft carrier - and the only one operational at the moment, it should be a first class base.
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"The Air Force has very expensive aeroplanes and it has highly trained support staff"
Err, same can be said for the Army and Navy these days actually.
I think some are missing the point here.
1. Mid and lower command has failed if it cant sort out the basic admin for a unit deployed on operations.
2. The guile and ingenuity of ensuring the chaps are sorted by whatever means available seems to have been lost. Maybe that flexibility has been lost due to fighting an enduring operation in established locations expecting it all to be laid on. First port of call seems to be to write to the press. I understand it was a SNCO.
3. How come Akrotiri wasn't supporting the Op fully? Thats one of their roles surely? (Aircraft carrier in the Med captures that perfectly).
4. Early days on a new op aren't going to be easy.
5. 'Roughing it' for a small amount of time is why we train recruits and turn them in to servicemen surely? Sets us apart from Joe-Shmo in civvy street and has enabled us to do the ****ty jobs politicians expect us to do with little resources and funding.
Err, same can be said for the Army and Navy these days actually.
I think some are missing the point here.
1. Mid and lower command has failed if it cant sort out the basic admin for a unit deployed on operations.
2. The guile and ingenuity of ensuring the chaps are sorted by whatever means available seems to have been lost. Maybe that flexibility has been lost due to fighting an enduring operation in established locations expecting it all to be laid on. First port of call seems to be to write to the press. I understand it was a SNCO.
3. How come Akrotiri wasn't supporting the Op fully? Thats one of their roles surely? (Aircraft carrier in the Med captures that perfectly).
4. Early days on a new op aren't going to be easy.
5. 'Roughing it' for a small amount of time is why we train recruits and turn them in to servicemen surely? Sets us apart from Joe-Shmo in civvy street and has enabled us to do the ****ty jobs politicians expect us to do with little resources and funding.
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Geardown, that attitude may have been fine during the cold war when the majority of the RAF operated from UK or Germany on large cosy bases but in this day of limited resources, combined ops and disappearing off to the four corners at the whim of the politicians sets you up as being the dinosaur.
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Geardown, do you understand that 'joint' means delivering effect as per the MoD 'plan' (whatever lunacy that may be). You make it sound like the whole of Defence is here to purely support the RAF and promote the PR and marketing campaign. You may not like it but we are generally all here to support the grunt on the ground.
WG12
Roughing it is all well and good when required. I'd argue that at a UK MOB in 2014 that shouldn't be necessary. The TGRF lads on Op Taurus didn't moan as they knew they were deployed in the middle of an African sh1thole.
Roughing it is all well and good when required. I'd argue that at a UK MOB in 2014 that shouldn't be necessary. The TGRF lads on Op Taurus didn't moan as they knew they were deployed in the middle of an African sh1thole.
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shouldn't have joined if you can't take a joke" of my day ?
Those who left the forces years ago might be reading this thread and thinking "why are they complaining, it's just a meal". But it's one more thing that has been added to the list of bullish*t and "austerity" measures we now have to put up with. All the small things add up to breaking point.