OP 'TIL WE DROP
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Mainjafad, I remember my C-exam many years ago:
Administration is so important that it is one of the 10 principles of war. What are the reasons that Administration is so important? (AP 1300)
I remember the principals being modified and morale would not appear to be the only thing neglected.
Administration is so important that it is one of the 10 principles of war. What are the reasons that Administration is so important? (AP 1300)
I remember the principals being modified and morale would not appear to be the only thing neglected.
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Royalist Flyer
And now that we know that the RN is to have its permanent new base in Bahrain, the more important that the RAF have a first class fully operational base in Akrotiri
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I should be amazed at the number of people who seem to think that a race to the bottom is an acceptable way of working. However, given the general intolerance of posts that don't indicate that the poster has had it rougher than anybody else, I'm not.
There are circumstances where individuals have to put up with austere conditions due to the tactical situation, and generally I've found people recognise that and don't complain. Being placed in such conditions due to financial constraints, which has become the norm, is not acceptable and people therefore complain. This has been going on for years and the bucket of good will is leaking at an alarming rate!
There are circumstances where individuals have to put up with austere conditions due to the tactical situation, and generally I've found people recognise that and don't complain. Being placed in such conditions due to financial constraints, which has become the norm, is not acceptable and people therefore complain. This has been going on for years and the bucket of good will is leaking at an alarming rate!
Whether people like it or not, serving conditions, and serving members expectations, have moved on over the years.
A couple of examples taken from the RN (which I admit I'm not an expert on). The latest generations of submarines, both SSBN and SSN, apparently have sufficient bunks for all crew members, thus ending the old practice of "hot bunking". While the Type 45 destroyer supposedly has the most luxurious accommodation of any RN vessel, including iPod chargers and internet connections.
By comparison, the expectation of a hot meal during a night shift at a long established base doesn't seem to be asking a lot to me!
I expect contractorization of facilities on base may also be part of the issue. I seem to remember years ago that the firemen at Akrotiri were contracted civilians, and therefore it was almost impossible to get fire cover (i.e. operate) outside the normal published opening hours - but perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me...
A couple of examples taken from the RN (which I admit I'm not an expert on). The latest generations of submarines, both SSBN and SSN, apparently have sufficient bunks for all crew members, thus ending the old practice of "hot bunking". While the Type 45 destroyer supposedly has the most luxurious accommodation of any RN vessel, including iPod chargers and internet connections.
By comparison, the expectation of a hot meal during a night shift at a long established base doesn't seem to be asking a lot to me!
I expect contractorization of facilities on base may also be part of the issue. I seem to remember years ago that the firemen at Akrotiri were contracted civilians, and therefore it was almost impossible to get fire cover (i.e. operate) outside the normal published opening hours - but perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me...
In the "worst transit" stakes, ASI is hard to beat.
I am also aware that the deployment limits I posted are only guidelines, and that many do more than that. However that is the case across all three services, so the fact remains that the RAF have a fairly cushy number.
It isn't really doing the RAF's image much good no matter what. Just take one look at ARRSE, or ask the rock apes...
I am also aware that the deployment limits I posted are only guidelines, and that many do more than that. However that is the case across all three services, so the fact remains that the RAF have a fairly cushy number.
It isn't really doing the RAF's image much good no matter what. Just take one look at ARRSE, or ask the rock apes...
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After many SH tours, I have experienced the luxury and hell that the RAF can provide, all over the world. I cringe at the stupidity of those who delight in saying that "we always have it tougher than you". So what, who is the stupid one there then??? It's always preferable to check in, rather than dig in. As long as you CAN dig in when absolutely necessary.
I will compare this situation to a RN ship. Poor accommodation, ok then, long deployments, ok as well....... Poor food, mutiny.
It doesn't matter if you are based in a 5star beach resort staffed by naked playboy bunnies, you have to get the basics right, food. The beancounters have taken one step too far.
FJ crews have always been soft pussies, but for once I agree with the whinges
I will compare this situation to a RN ship. Poor accommodation, ok then, long deployments, ok as well....... Poor food, mutiny.
It doesn't matter if you are based in a 5star beach resort staffed by naked playboy bunnies, you have to get the basics right, food. The beancounters have taken one step too far.
FJ crews have always been soft pussies, but for once I agree with the whinges
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The RAF already has an equivalent to this RN Bahrain facility, a few hundred miles to the SE.
Last edited by Uncle Ginsters; 6th Dec 2014 at 18:07.
Trying to obtain/maintain a good reputation among people who will never hold you in high regard is a pointless exercise! 
Trying to obtain/maintain decent working conditions for your colleagues/subordinates on the other hand is surely the responsibility of everyone in the command chain ..
Trying to obtain/maintain decent working conditions for your colleagues/subordinates on the other hand is surely the responsibility of everyone in the command chain ..
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I seem to recall the UK gmvnt, FCO led line was no permenant dets in the Middle East hence the long standing portacabin/hotel accom plan. Im sure the RN will be delighted with the new build and that they no longer have to get changed every morning in the storeroom! Light blue presence equally becoming hardened buildings and has been for a few years. Local sensitives negating the media copy mind...
I think with AKI one of the issues is justifying spend on contingency activity vice minimum spend to a set and tangible requirement. Building SLAM that would be empty and there 'just in case' of an op or extra costs and clauses on a contract to surge capability is sadly rather hard to justify when money is so tight.
I think with AKI one of the issues is justifying spend on contingency activity vice minimum spend to a set and tangible requirement. Building SLAM that would be empty and there 'just in case' of an op or extra costs and clauses on a contract to surge capability is sadly rather hard to justify when money is so tight.
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War is easy to define and requires only the WILL and the CAPACITY. I very much doubt we have the former but it is abundantly clear that we lack the latter condition.
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Being in the UK Armed Forces in 2014 is to have been privileged with continually losing the wars you have supported or fought in. Certainly we aren't seeming to win anything, and I think this affects the mindset.
And nobody, but nobody in civvy street gives a tuppenny fig about it.
Continuous downsizing and cost cutting/privatization of the military like this hits the lowest ranks first every time. Not being able to get a decent hot meal laid on, decent accomm available (from within lets face it whilst in a western type small country miles from a war zone) is an utter howler. RAF Senior Officers beware, be very aware-sort it out or do the decent and resign and get out of the way.
* The fact the RAF cant manage or admin their groundcrews properly, yet can still find money to use the base for training a flying circus, beggars belief.
**RN Carriers carried out a rolling op for 3 long years from Adriatic areas lurcher and dogger right through the Bosnian/Serb/Croat fallout 92 to 95. Wasn't easy but we had 3 relatively modern ships, hot food, basic but clean messing, runs ashore (drinking sessions) every 6 weeks or so and so on. Most people could just about handle it, but it wasn't easy as a JR.
Something has changed within military people if they are finally speaking out at how **** it is? The worm turning? Hope so.
Damn glad I'm no longer doing this line of work anymore anyway, and as I've said before on here, if you don't like it/hate it - get outside, its far easier and you are generally treat and paid far better (a story in itself).
And nobody, but nobody in civvy street gives a tuppenny fig about it.
Continuous downsizing and cost cutting/privatization of the military like this hits the lowest ranks first every time. Not being able to get a decent hot meal laid on, decent accomm available (from within lets face it whilst in a western type small country miles from a war zone) is an utter howler. RAF Senior Officers beware, be very aware-sort it out or do the decent and resign and get out of the way.
* The fact the RAF cant manage or admin their groundcrews properly, yet can still find money to use the base for training a flying circus, beggars belief.
**RN Carriers carried out a rolling op for 3 long years from Adriatic areas lurcher and dogger right through the Bosnian/Serb/Croat fallout 92 to 95. Wasn't easy but we had 3 relatively modern ships, hot food, basic but clean messing, runs ashore (drinking sessions) every 6 weeks or so and so on. Most people could just about handle it, but it wasn't easy as a JR.
Something has changed within military people if they are finally speaking out at how **** it is? The worm turning? Hope so.
Damn glad I'm no longer doing this line of work anymore anyway, and as I've said before on here, if you don't like it/hate it - get outside, its far easier and you are generally treat and paid far better (a story in itself).
Comments on AARSE
As you can imagine, AARSE is all over this running a thread which is generating pages at 4 x the rate on PPRuNe: RAF Morale Failure at Akrotiri | Army Rumour Service
Quite a few chuckles to be had scanning through the comments:
For example, from "Draft Dodger": "I don't even find this funny. Someone needs to get over there and shove a morale rocket up their a...s."
This from "AT55": "Why did the Army/Royal Marines miss this when Iraq and Afghan were under way? They could have sent squaddies for a few weeks in Akrotiri to toughen them up to the deprivations they would get in theatre. Typical of the heads to miss this or maybe they reckoned that your average soldier of marine would just find it too tough!!! "
Just like PPruNe, thread drift off-topic from "Gunner 82": "During Gulf War 1 fought you may remember for freedom and democracy I was on Kermit's staff and we had complaints from the RAF that the Gulf Hotel in Bahrain was not up to the standard they expected as they were working very hard, I felt so sad for them having inferior room service and as for the poolside service it nearly brought me to tears." I left out the bit about what he would rather his daughter had done instead of joining the RAF as an officer.
Of course there are many other helpful suggestions regarding det self-help solutions, recommendations about how the chain of command should have handled the situation, and informed comment on how this makes the RAF look. Grab a coffee and enjoy !
Quite a few chuckles to be had scanning through the comments:
For example, from "Draft Dodger": "I don't even find this funny. Someone needs to get over there and shove a morale rocket up their a...s."
This from "AT55": "Why did the Army/Royal Marines miss this when Iraq and Afghan were under way? They could have sent squaddies for a few weeks in Akrotiri to toughen them up to the deprivations they would get in theatre. Typical of the heads to miss this or maybe they reckoned that your average soldier of marine would just find it too tough!!! "
Just like PPruNe, thread drift off-topic from "Gunner 82": "During Gulf War 1 fought you may remember for freedom and democracy I was on Kermit's staff and we had complaints from the RAF that the Gulf Hotel in Bahrain was not up to the standard they expected as they were working very hard, I felt so sad for them having inferior room service and as for the poolside service it nearly brought me to tears." I left out the bit about what he would rather his daughter had done instead of joining the RAF as an officer.
Of course there are many other helpful suggestions regarding det self-help solutions, recommendations about how the chain of command should have handled the situation, and informed comment on how this makes the RAF look. Grab a coffee and enjoy !
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I got so sick of reading some of the responses that I skipped all of page 5 and most of page 6. Being told by those from 20 years ago that we 'don't do enough ops' or that we 'aren't hardened to an operational environment' leaves a very bitter taste in the mouth.
The fact is when I joined up I could have expected ops from time to time, in fact as most young thrusting aircrew I wanted it. The fact is for my entire career all I have known is NI, Iraq, Afghan, the falkland and Africa. In amongst this my flying pay was reduced by a year, my pension reduced by 3,500 a year and my service extended to 22 years for my pension-none of which I signed up for.
People might say 'it's the military, this is what you signed up for'... Well no actually it wasn't. My terms and conditions that I signed up to have been altered beyond all recognition, I wasn't told that my entire career would be ops in the Middle East, and I wasn't told that even the smallest chance to boost morale such as an Adventure Training trip would be denied due to cost.
Some will say 'leave then'. This is the saddening point, I probably will leave, along with a lot of my comrades, pilots who have a lot of experience, who mostly enjoy the job and want to stay in because they believe in something that I can't quite put my finger on. But for now they are marginalised, told that 14 years of ops isn't enough (and for those above who sat 'you haven't done constant ops for that long' try speaking to a few of the herc guys or rotary guys in particular who've know nothing else) and that the general state of affairs will not improve, in fact it will deteriorate.
Good luck with recruiting, and good luck with retention. As always Per Ardua Ad Astra...unfortunately a lot more Ardua than expected.
The fact is when I joined up I could have expected ops from time to time, in fact as most young thrusting aircrew I wanted it. The fact is for my entire career all I have known is NI, Iraq, Afghan, the falkland and Africa. In amongst this my flying pay was reduced by a year, my pension reduced by 3,500 a year and my service extended to 22 years for my pension-none of which I signed up for.
People might say 'it's the military, this is what you signed up for'... Well no actually it wasn't. My terms and conditions that I signed up to have been altered beyond all recognition, I wasn't told that my entire career would be ops in the Middle East, and I wasn't told that even the smallest chance to boost morale such as an Adventure Training trip would be denied due to cost.
Some will say 'leave then'. This is the saddening point, I probably will leave, along with a lot of my comrades, pilots who have a lot of experience, who mostly enjoy the job and want to stay in because they believe in something that I can't quite put my finger on. But for now they are marginalised, told that 14 years of ops isn't enough (and for those above who sat 'you haven't done constant ops for that long' try speaking to a few of the herc guys or rotary guys in particular who've know nothing else) and that the general state of affairs will not improve, in fact it will deteriorate.
Good luck with recruiting, and good luck with retention. As always Per Ardua Ad Astra...unfortunately a lot more Ardua than expected.
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Admit it chaps, the modern RAF isn't really a part of the MoD. Merely a self licking lollipop that attempts to portray itself as the most important justification as to why it still requires a huge budget to ensure Britain remains free and the other two services should be subsumed to create an uber-Air Force. Cos after all, its down to the RAF why we don't all speak German.....
RAF Regt can defend the British Isles cos they are the main part of the 'big three'.
Typhoons can defend the airspace cos the threat of the red bear will be kept at bay so long as millions is spent of QRF.
The Navy cant operate F35 cos 'what FJ have they managed to operate in the past 10 years?'.
Tis easy so long as the cheese sarnies are up to scratch....
Bunch of civvies
RAF Regt can defend the British Isles cos they are the main part of the 'big three'.
Typhoons can defend the airspace cos the threat of the red bear will be kept at bay so long as millions is spent of QRF.
The Navy cant operate F35 cos 'what FJ have they managed to operate in the past 10 years?'.
Tis easy so long as the cheese sarnies are up to scratch....
Bunch of civvies
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Admit it chaps, the modern RAF isn't really a part of the MoD. Merely a self licking lollipop that attempts to portray itself as the most important justification as to why it still requires a huge budget to ensure Britain remains free and the other two services should be subsumed to create an uber-Air Force. Cos after all, its down to the RAF why we don't all speak German.....
RAF Regt can defend the British Isles cos they are the main part of the 'big three'.
Typhoons can defend the airspace cos the threat of the red bear will be kept at bay so long as millions is spent of QRF.
The Navy cant operate F35 cos 'what FJ have they managed to operate in the past 10 years?'.
Tis easy so long as the cheese sarnies are up to scratch....
Bunch of civvies
RAF Regt can defend the British Isles cos they are the main part of the 'big three'.
Typhoons can defend the airspace cos the threat of the red bear will be kept at bay so long as millions is spent of QRF.
The Navy cant operate F35 cos 'what FJ have they managed to operate in the past 10 years?'.
Tis easy so long as the cheese sarnies are up to scratch....
Bunch of civvies
Last edited by gr4techie; 7th Dec 2014 at 00:00.
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Many of the posts; including those of the Dummy, appear to be concentrating on the perceived operational working conditions and the Cheese-Sarnie Gate lack of adequate catering facilities.
They ignore the main thrust of the message that the GR4 Fleet is knackered. A mere 16 out of 102 aircraft are fitted with complete suite of operational equipment; the so called Diamond Fleet!
I'm Angry and frankly embarrassed that Senior Officers and our Government have allowed our Front Line Equipment to get in such a state due lack of funding, Man power, spares etc etc.
I'm not surprised the engineers are struggling to keep them serviceable and then treated badly while trying to do so.
Perhaps we need a new buy of F-15E?
They ignore the main thrust of the message that the GR4 Fleet is knackered. A mere 16 out of 102 aircraft are fitted with complete suite of operational equipment; the so called Diamond Fleet!
I'm Angry and frankly embarrassed that Senior Officers and our Government have allowed our Front Line Equipment to get in such a state due lack of funding, Man power, spares etc etc.
I'm not surprised the engineers are struggling to keep them serviceable and then treated badly while trying to do so.
Perhaps we need a new buy of F-15E?
With the Sunday Times article talking of a direct plea to the UK to return an FJ Sqn to AFG perhaps we could purchase a US Sqn already at Bagram.
It's all a bit of a mess. Given the state of the TGRF I presume that this burden, if realised, would fall on Typhoon. Nice cycle of Q, support to NATO, FI then AFG then Q....
It's all a bit of a mess. Given the state of the TGRF I presume that this burden, if realised, would fall on Typhoon. Nice cycle of Q, support to NATO, FI then AFG then Q....