National Defence Medal is a medal for doing nothing
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Well said BP
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Am I not right in thinking that wounded/KiA receive the campaign medal regardless of time served?
The Gloucestershire Regiment was awarded honour of wearing 2 hat badges for their action during the Battle of Alexandria in 1801. Whilst engaged with French infantry to their front and flanks whilst deployed in line, they were charged by French Cavalry from the rear. The rear rank was ordered to about face and inflicted heavy casualties on the French cavalry with a volley of musket fire causing them to withdraw.
Correct, MPN, as a general rule, any length of service in theatre which is curtailed by death or disability due to service will be sufficient to qualify for the relevant British campaign medal.
With regards to a Purple Star equivalent, we did of course have wound stripes in the First World War, and these were re-introduced in 1944 in the form of a cloth badge worn on the battledress. As far as I am aware they have not been issued since WW2, certainly not for recent conflicts.
With regards to a Purple Star equivalent, we did of course have wound stripes in the First World War, and these were re-introduced in 1944 in the form of a cloth badge worn on the battledress. As far as I am aware they have not been issued since WW2, certainly not for recent conflicts.
As my only medal is the GSM with clasp Malaya for my service in the Far East in 1956-58. Not sure why I got it as the nearest I came to any fighting was as a pax in a 205/209 Sqn Sunderland on a night Firedog mission that dropped some bombs on communists in the Malayan jungle, so I've read this thread with interest.
Anyway the reason for commenting is that there is an article in today's Sunday Times about a book written by an American general (Daniel Bolger) that criticises the current head of the British Army, General Sir Nick Carter. In the article there is a fascinating paragraph relevant to the award of medals which states:
"...During his time commanding troops in Helmand and Kandahar, Carter [General Sir Nick Carter current chief of the general staff] proposed a new medal be awarded for avoiding the use of deadly force, which a NATO spokesman described as “an act of discipline and courage not much different than those seen in combat actions”. The proposal was shelved..."
Anyway the reason for commenting is that there is an article in today's Sunday Times about a book written by an American general (Daniel Bolger) that criticises the current head of the British Army, General Sir Nick Carter. In the article there is a fascinating paragraph relevant to the award of medals which states:
"...During his time commanding troops in Helmand and Kandahar, Carter [General Sir Nick Carter current chief of the general staff] proposed a new medal be awarded for avoiding the use of deadly force, which a NATO spokesman described as “an act of discipline and courage not much different than those seen in combat actions”. The proposal was shelved..."
Shack,
"Odd you should describe your GSM as lowly (I have one from Aden and an unclaimed bar for NI) because I too am surprised to see it take precedence over other campaign medals worn by guys for service in Iraq/Afghanistan."
Wrong, campaign medals are worn in order of awarded date.
SL
"Odd you should describe your GSM as lowly (I have one from Aden and an unclaimed bar for NI) because I too am surprised to see it take precedence over other campaign medals worn by guys for service in Iraq/Afghanistan."
Wrong, campaign medals are worn in order of awarded date.
SL
Those who suggest this would be a medal for nothing miss the point. The individual has volunteered for service, undergone rigorous initial and professional training and have placed themselves in a position where they could be placed potential danger.Whether they face enemy fire or not is irrelevant, as they have been prepared to do so and should receive national recognition of their service to the country.This does not detract from the value of an Operational Service Medal, which is over and above the requirements for a National Defence Medal.
After giving the matter some thought I'm not sure where I stand on this. Initially I was not in favour however when you think back life in the Cold War was, for some, not without 'risk and rigour'. We certainly suffered our fair share of fatalities through accidents, flying and otherwise either during exercises or even normal day to day ops. Certainly some of the more dangerous jobs and uncomfortable times I've had were not in Operational theatres but on exercise in Germany and UK. Coupled with the threat (real or imagined) of IRA terrorism it wasn't the easy life. I'm sure it was the same in the RN and Army too.
I can't say I'm particularly fussed either way as I've got enough tin to be happy with but I can understand why some would.
I can't say I'm particularly fussed either way as I've got enough tin to be happy with but I can understand why some would.
Speaking as one of those who would be eligible I think its a nice idea and as has been pointed out, perhaps, yes for operational aircrew or others who's very bread and butter duties put them in harms way as a matter of routine. I might kick off an argument here and make no excuses for myself, but as a former ASOP I don't think even a tour in Belize quite cuts the mustard expect in exceptional circumstances, towit, the Saturday evening in Belize when hung over as a Parrot I wandered over to the Naafi to get something to eat, eventually, and something to drink (tonic water or something like that) I picked the night that 40 Commando were having their farewell bash and as always, there was the odd one holding a party at the Bar all on their todd. I stood next to one who became quite upset "because the crab wouldn't help him down a whole bottle of rum" so despite my very fragile state I spared his feelings and obligingly gulped down half a bottle of rum with lashings of lemonade. And for managing that without chucking up my load and maintaining good public relations between the R.A.F. and the Bootnecks I feel I deserve some form of recognition.
FB
FB
PapaDolimio
I agree with your post. There are many that do lots to support ops and never sit the right side of a line to qualify or don't do exactly the right number of consecutive nights. I can remember an SF herc mate didn't get his GW1 gong as he didn't stay long enough in country to qualify - the fact that he had been dropping into various TLZs made no difference (but he did have a chest of tin from other ops where he did qualify).
As for affordability? Why not make people eligible for the National Defence Medal as those that have retired and that they may purchase and wear them? That way, they will have a piece of tin to wear at War Memorials and not feel lost out?
I do feel for the Cold War guys that didn't get anything. They saw some pretty hairy times and kept us all safe.
Like you I have quite a few bits of tin, but I don't begrudge others and I don't think it will 'devalue' mine.
LJ
I agree with your post. There are many that do lots to support ops and never sit the right side of a line to qualify or don't do exactly the right number of consecutive nights. I can remember an SF herc mate didn't get his GW1 gong as he didn't stay long enough in country to qualify - the fact that he had been dropping into various TLZs made no difference (but he did have a chest of tin from other ops where he did qualify).
As for affordability? Why not make people eligible for the National Defence Medal as those that have retired and that they may purchase and wear them? That way, they will have a piece of tin to wear at War Memorials and not feel lost out?
I do feel for the Cold War guys that didn't get anything. They saw some pretty hairy times and kept us all safe.
Like you I have quite a few bits of tin, but I don't begrudge others and I don't think it will 'devalue' mine.
LJ
Indeed jonw66,
The state I was in at the time, when the already sozzled Bootneck reached out in hail fellow well met fashion and slurred come over 'ere mate, we'll 'ave this together, and produced about a litre size bottle of white rum I at first declined the offer while my feet froze with terror and my new found buddy said "you're a right effin' Bar Steward int ya, at which point, with lots of noisy Marines jammed into the place, I duly reconsidered, well perhaps if you could pour me some in this, offered a papercup to go or whatever, but that didn't suit either. Still can't imagine how I got away with it, there's a God somewhere I suppose.
FB
The state I was in at the time, when the already sozzled Bootneck reached out in hail fellow well met fashion and slurred come over 'ere mate, we'll 'ave this together, and produced about a litre size bottle of white rum I at first declined the offer while my feet froze with terror and my new found buddy said "you're a right effin' Bar Steward int ya, at which point, with lots of noisy Marines jammed into the place, I duly reconsidered, well perhaps if you could pour me some in this, offered a papercup to go or whatever, but that didn't suit either. Still can't imagine how I got away with it, there's a God somewhere I suppose.
FB
I did nearly 28 years in light blue, during which the RAF was involved in two conflicts: Falklands and GW1. For both I was serving in London at the MoD as a "Whitehall Warrior". Result: bare-chested No1.
Do I care? No!
Would I wear a "National Defence/Cold War Medal"? Not sure.
Do I care? No!
Would I wear a "National Defence/Cold War Medal"? Not sure.
As has been mentioned, there are a few impressive groups of medals around these days, notably in the rotary world, and of course in the Royal Marines and special forces.
However I think even the most decorated of those guys have got a way to go before they catch up with this bloke. He was notoriously parsimonious, so I imagine he moaned every time he got a new medal and had to get them all remounted! This lot are charging £45 for just the ribbons!
The Ribbon Shop - Medal Ribbons Set - King George VI
(The link title is confusing, it's not the king!)
However I think even the most decorated of those guys have got a way to go before they catch up with this bloke. He was notoriously parsimonious, so I imagine he moaned every time he got a new medal and had to get them all remounted! This lot are charging £45 for just the ribbons!
The Ribbon Shop - Medal Ribbons Set - King George VI
(The link title is confusing, it's not the king!)
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It's not a new debate; most veterans of the Napoleonic Wars including those who fought all through the Iberian Peninsula and France went home bare chested. But the lowliest drummer or clerk serving at Waterloo was awarded a medal.
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This thread reminded me of a passage in Johnnie Johnson's book 'The story of air fighting'. After visiting the Israeli Air Force he's being driven back to the airport by the aide de camp:
I checked and rechecked the various incidents of the last few days and finally asked him, 'Do your pilots get decorations for outstanding flying?'
'What do you mean?'
'Well,' I replied, 'take the colonel who destroyed six MiGs last June. In the Royal Air Force he would have got the Distinguished Flying Cross or maybe even the Distinguished Service Order, and in the USAF he probably would have got the Silver Star. What did he get from your Air Force?'
'Nothing. We don't get decorations for doing our job.'
I checked and rechecked the various incidents of the last few days and finally asked him, 'Do your pilots get decorations for outstanding flying?'
'What do you mean?'
'Well,' I replied, 'take the colonel who destroyed six MiGs last June. In the Royal Air Force he would have got the Distinguished Flying Cross or maybe even the Distinguished Service Order, and in the USAF he probably would have got the Silver Star. What did he get from your Air Force?'
'Nothing. We don't get decorations for doing our job.'