PAS Post Medical Downgrade
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PAS Post Medical Downgrade
Just wondering if any of the other PAS chaps out there have been medically downgraded and whether or not this resulted in them being removed from PAS.
My own situation is that I can only fly dual pilot aircraft and cannot be deployed, which leaves me without an aircraft to fly when the Sea King goes out of service.
Would any ground tour have to be 'flying related' to stay on PAS?
Any advice much appreciated!
My own situation is that I can only fly dual pilot aircraft and cannot be deployed, which leaves me without an aircraft to fly when the Sea King goes out of service.
Would any ground tour have to be 'flying related' to stay on PAS?
Any advice much appreciated!
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I too spent some time (last 4 1/2 years of my career) with a med cat of being unable to deploy (I spent a couple of years needing to be within spitting distance of a hospital with a potentially serious eye condition which could lead to a detached retina) but was allowed some latitude with travel to Europe with SMO approval. However, my flying was very sporadic at the time as I was flying a desk for the PT for the last 5 years of my PAS career. I eventually went to SME at Henlow for a permanent medical downgrade where they did not fuss too much about the eye but were more concerned with "how far can you run". I came out with the same med cat as I went in, still able to fly (admittedly in the back of ISTAR), and ended my career on time 2 years later. I have to say that I found the medics very supportive during the whole period - they were very fair.
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Hope you're ok now Wensleydale
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PAS Post Medical Downgrade
In my case, I'm already downgraded, but technically, I can still fly and I am still flying, it's just there's a shortage of future options available.
More than happy to do a 'flying related' or other ground tour, but what are the rules regarding PAS?
More than happy to do a 'flying related' or other ground tour, but what are the rules regarding PAS?
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Unable to deploy?
WW, so you can conveniently go to the nice cushy dets, but avoid all of those terrible operational ones? How awful! It's ok though, there will always be someone else on your squadron that can do those Op dets twice instead!
With the forces struggling to find enough manpower to run as it is, people who can't deploy should be moved off the front line into training roles/ground posts, making room for someone who can deploy and share the squadron's Op burden.
That way the remaining people on the front line don't get screwed over by having to do their own Op Det and someone else's, spending even more time away than they should!
Having someone who cannot deploy, filling a deployable post on a squadron brings nothing to the party. It just means that they have to achieve the same task with less people. Then those people get pissed off at doing the lion's share while others just get the cushy dets, sometimes at their expense. There is no point being there if you cannot got to war!
Sorry, but that's the bottom line, so get off the front line!
With the forces struggling to find enough manpower to run as it is, people who can't deploy should be moved off the front line into training roles/ground posts, making room for someone who can deploy and share the squadron's Op burden.
That way the remaining people on the front line don't get screwed over by having to do their own Op Det and someone else's, spending even more time away than they should!
Having someone who cannot deploy, filling a deployable post on a squadron brings nothing to the party. It just means that they have to achieve the same task with less people. Then those people get pissed off at doing the lion's share while others just get the cushy dets, sometimes at their expense. There is no point being there if you cannot got to war!
Sorry, but that's the bottom line, so get off the front line!
Last edited by Fintastic; 20th Oct 2014 at 05:39.
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Fin, you neither know the circumstances nor the reason, or for that, the time period, so that was a bit harsh.
Having someone who cannot deploy, filling a deployable post on a squadron brings nothing to the party. It just means that they have to achieve the same task with less people. Then those people get pissed off at doing the lions share while you just get the cushy dets, sometimes at their expense. There is no point being there if you cannot got to war!
Sorry, but that's the bottom line, so get off the front line!
Sorry, but that's the bottom line, so get off the front line!
I've been offered the option of retaining or moving on individuals who have had limited med cats. If the individual offers nothing but the basic job which he can no longer do I would be minded to let them go; but even then this may be moderated by the ability of the system to replace them.
If they are a high caliber individual that can instruct, mentor, authorise or just plain lead people effectively then I would fight tooth and nail to keep them whilst they recuperate. There is always something for the high calibre individuals to do to support the colleagues they have served alongside during better times.
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If memory serves me correctly, and do check this in the JSP....
If you remain to have an employable 'L' category then you can continue to serve and then even if you fully lost your 'A' medical cat then you cannot be removed from PES. Do check the JSP, I had cause to read it a few months ago.
H
If you remain to have an employable 'L' category then you can continue to serve and then even if you fully lost your 'A' medical cat then you cannot be removed from PES. Do check the JSP, I had cause to read it a few months ago.
H
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"Hope you're ok now Wensleydale".
Yes thanks, Nutty. Five sessions of laser eye treatment on the retina and the background cause of the problem (leaking blood vessel) has now gone. The scaring is very peripheral and it just means that I need a retina scan every year just to make sure that it doesn't re-occur. (And gives my optician a thrill because my condition was deemed to be very rare).
I have to reiterate that the medics wherever I went were very supportive and told me my options at every stage of treatment/assessment. At the end of the day, I still have my sight (the final cure for my condition, should the laser not work and the retina detach was amputation of the eye so I consider myself very lucky). Thanks especially to the military eye specialists at Selly Oak!
Yes thanks, Nutty. Five sessions of laser eye treatment on the retina and the background cause of the problem (leaking blood vessel) has now gone. The scaring is very peripheral and it just means that I need a retina scan every year just to make sure that it doesn't re-occur. (And gives my optician a thrill because my condition was deemed to be very rare).
I have to reiterate that the medics wherever I went were very supportive and told me my options at every stage of treatment/assessment. At the end of the day, I still have my sight (the final cure for my condition, should the laser not work and the retina detach was amputation of the eye so I consider myself very lucky). Thanks especially to the military eye specialists at Selly Oak!
Some documents I have to hand but there is plenty of flex in the system:
AP3393:
QR1421:
JSP754:
AP3393:
Medical Review
7501. The medical fitness standards for officers in the Fg Branch are set out in QR 1421 and for all other officers in QR 1422. These QRs also detail the action that will be taken to decide an officer's further service when, having appeared before a Permanent RAF Medical Board, the officer has been found to be permanently below the prescribed medical standard or is unlikely to reach that standard within a reasonable time.
Employability Review
7502. In certain circumstances, as decided by the RAF, officers with a reduced medical category may be offered retention in their branch on the understanding that a review will take place to assess their employability up to a maximum of 3 years hence. In some cases it may become necessary for the RAF to terminate their regular service on medical grounds prior to or at that review. In that event termination of service would normally be by invaliding and would, if possible, be subject to at least 6 months' notice after the decision to invalid. Any officer who is retained on this understanding will, in view of the potential negative effect upon career prospects and/or employability, have a reciprocal right to leave regular service having given 6 months' notice, or earlier, if releasable without inconvenience to the Service. A decision to leave at own request will normally mean release on Early Termination (PVR) terms but the RAF may decide whether invaliding is exceptionally justified. The period of 6 months' notice will not apply to Fg Branch officers retained under the terms of paragraph 7503 who become medically unfit for ground duties; termination of their service will be by invaliding in accordance with normal procedures.
Discharge or Retention of Medically Unfit Officers
7503. Fg Branch. Productive Fg Branch officers who, as a result of a review under the terms of QR 1421, are withdrawn from flying duties solely on account of medical unfitness may elect to be invalided under QR 1421(3). Alternatively, they may, if they wish, be considered for retention in regular service in another branch, provided that they are suitable and medically fit for such duties and posts are available in which they can be employed. If, for any reason, an officer cannot be retained in regular service they will be invalided under QR 1421(2).
7504. Officers will be transferred to ground duties as soon as it is decided that they are permanently unfit for flying duties even though they may, at the time, be temporarily unfit for ground duties.
7501. The medical fitness standards for officers in the Fg Branch are set out in QR 1421 and for all other officers in QR 1422. These QRs also detail the action that will be taken to decide an officer's further service when, having appeared before a Permanent RAF Medical Board, the officer has been found to be permanently below the prescribed medical standard or is unlikely to reach that standard within a reasonable time.
Employability Review
7502. In certain circumstances, as decided by the RAF, officers with a reduced medical category may be offered retention in their branch on the understanding that a review will take place to assess their employability up to a maximum of 3 years hence. In some cases it may become necessary for the RAF to terminate their regular service on medical grounds prior to or at that review. In that event termination of service would normally be by invaliding and would, if possible, be subject to at least 6 months' notice after the decision to invalid. Any officer who is retained on this understanding will, in view of the potential negative effect upon career prospects and/or employability, have a reciprocal right to leave regular service having given 6 months' notice, or earlier, if releasable without inconvenience to the Service. A decision to leave at own request will normally mean release on Early Termination (PVR) terms but the RAF may decide whether invaliding is exceptionally justified. The period of 6 months' notice will not apply to Fg Branch officers retained under the terms of paragraph 7503 who become medically unfit for ground duties; termination of their service will be by invaliding in accordance with normal procedures.
Discharge or Retention of Medically Unfit Officers
7503. Fg Branch. Productive Fg Branch officers who, as a result of a review under the terms of QR 1421, are withdrawn from flying duties solely on account of medical unfitness may elect to be invalided under QR 1421(3). Alternatively, they may, if they wish, be considered for retention in regular service in another branch, provided that they are suitable and medically fit for such duties and posts are available in which they can be employed. If, for any reason, an officer cannot be retained in regular service they will be invalided under QR 1421(2).
7504. Officers will be transferred to ground duties as soon as it is decided that they are permanently unfit for flying duties even though they may, at the time, be temporarily unfit for ground duties.
1421. Medical Standards of Fitness for Aircrew Officers of the General Duties Branch. Sponsor: COS Health/DGMS(RAF)
(1) (a) All aircrew officers of the General Duties Branch (except Gp Capts and above who have passed their 45th birthday) must be fit for full flying duties and for all general service duties.
(b) All aircrew officers of the General Duties Branch of the rank of Gp Capt and above who have passed their 45th birthday must be fit for limited flying duties and for all general service duties.
(2) When an aircrew officer of the General Duties Branch is examined by an RAF Medical Board and found to be below the appropriate medical standards described in clause (1), or is unlikely to reach that standard within reasonable time, the Air Force Board or appropriate delegated authority will decide whether it is possible to retain the officer in the Service on duties within his medical classification, or whether he shall be invalided. When it is decided to retain an officer for employment within his medical category, a decision will also be taken by the Air Force Board or appropriate delegated authority, about which the officer will be informed, on the period for which he is likely to be retained. When an officer is still below the prescribed standards at the end of the period of retention, he will be invalided if he cannot be offered further employment or if he does not wish to remain on the active list. Cases of particular difficulty or importance should be referred by the appropriate delegated authority to the Air Force Board.
(3) Aircrew officers of the General Duties Branch who are withdrawn from flying duties on account of permanent medical unfitness may elect to be invalided. Those who elect to be invalided are to be referred to the DAP for consideration of the award of invaliding benefits. The award of invaliding benefits is discretionary. Those who are retained on the active list will be dealt with as provided in AP 3393, Chap 4, Annex B.
(4) Aircrew officers of the General Duties Branch are to be medically classified on examination up to the full extent of their fitness irrespective of age. When, however, the Air Force Board or appropriate delegated authority decides to retain an officer who has been withdrawn from flying or other combatant duties, he is only to be medically classified up to the standard required for non-combatant, passenger, and ground duties at home and abroad.
(1) (a) All aircrew officers of the General Duties Branch (except Gp Capts and above who have passed their 45th birthday) must be fit for full flying duties and for all general service duties.
(b) All aircrew officers of the General Duties Branch of the rank of Gp Capt and above who have passed their 45th birthday must be fit for limited flying duties and for all general service duties.
(2) When an aircrew officer of the General Duties Branch is examined by an RAF Medical Board and found to be below the appropriate medical standards described in clause (1), or is unlikely to reach that standard within reasonable time, the Air Force Board or appropriate delegated authority will decide whether it is possible to retain the officer in the Service on duties within his medical classification, or whether he shall be invalided. When it is decided to retain an officer for employment within his medical category, a decision will also be taken by the Air Force Board or appropriate delegated authority, about which the officer will be informed, on the period for which he is likely to be retained. When an officer is still below the prescribed standards at the end of the period of retention, he will be invalided if he cannot be offered further employment or if he does not wish to remain on the active list. Cases of particular difficulty or importance should be referred by the appropriate delegated authority to the Air Force Board.
(3) Aircrew officers of the General Duties Branch who are withdrawn from flying duties on account of permanent medical unfitness may elect to be invalided. Those who elect to be invalided are to be referred to the DAP for consideration of the award of invaliding benefits. The award of invaliding benefits is discretionary. Those who are retained on the active list will be dealt with as provided in AP 3393, Chap 4, Annex B.
(4) Aircrew officers of the General Duties Branch are to be medically classified on examination up to the full extent of their fitness irrespective of age. When, however, the Air Force Board or appropriate delegated authority decides to retain an officer who has been withdrawn from flying or other combatant duties, he is only to be medically classified up to the standard required for non-combatant, passenger, and ground duties at home and abroad.
Medical Downgrading
05.0718. PAS personnel who are temporarily medically downgraded will remain on the PAS. However, PAS personnel who are permanently medically downgraded and cannot fill either flying or flying related posts cannot remain on the PAS. In such circumstances personnel may, depending on manning requirements, be offered a transfer to a non-flying post. Alternatively they may elect to exit the Services on invaliding terms or be medically discharged.
05.0718. PAS personnel who are temporarily medically downgraded will remain on the PAS. However, PAS personnel who are permanently medically downgraded and cannot fill either flying or flying related posts cannot remain on the PAS. In such circumstances personnel may, depending on manning requirements, be offered a transfer to a non-flying post. Alternatively they may elect to exit the Services on invaliding terms or be medically discharged.
Last edited by Just This Once...; 19th Oct 2014 at 11:13.
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I have just lost my flying med cat permanently, now A4. I am also permanently non deployable amongst other restrictions. I am moving into an established ground role for my trade as well as being allowed to serve for the rest of my engagement (aged 55). Because of this move, I am keeping my RRP (flying pay of old) as well. Manning have been very supportive throughout.
Clearly I am not on PAS, but in terms of engagement and pay I am not losing out at all.
And before people chip in and accuse me of shirking or causing others extra heartache, I have nearly 800 days OOA and my injuries were caused on duty.
Clearly I am not on PAS, but in terms of engagement and pay I am not losing out at all.
And before people chip in and accuse me of shirking or causing others extra heartache, I have nearly 800 days OOA and my injuries were caused on duty.
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PAS Post Medical Downgrade
Ahh Jayteeto, I've thought long and hard about every possible option to keep me flying.
Even drone pilots must be 'able' to deploy and Manning won't support a multi crossover as I've only 5 years left.
Reforming the 72 Sqn band is definitely a possibility, but unfortunately not on PAS pay!
My take on JP754 s that I am still 'able' to undertake flying related duties, so I'll need to find one of those, preferably in London or the South East. Any ideas?
PS I take it I know you from 72?
Even drone pilots must be 'able' to deploy and Manning won't support a multi crossover as I've only 5 years left.
Reforming the 72 Sqn band is definitely a possibility, but unfortunately not on PAS pay!
My take on JP754 s that I am still 'able' to undertake flying related duties, so I'll need to find one of those, preferably in London or the South East. Any ideas?
PS I take it I know you from 72?
Good luck and I am sure the Service will wish to retain you.
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Megawatt, can you not get on something like the para dropping islander or the northolt one?
RAF Northolt - Aircraft and Equipment
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JTO, if you re-read my post you'll see that at no time did I mention booting them out of the service, especially for temporary downgrades. I only mentioned moving people with permanent/long term deployment restriction off the front line, so that others who could deploy can replace them and be able to share the Squadron's Det burden.
I have no issue with people being used in other roles where their skills and experience can still be of great value, but the fact remains that if they remain on the front line and aren't deployable, then other squadron personnel will have to cover their deployed job. FACT!
I know of several instances of personnel who have a 'convenient' medical issue that means they can only go to certain nice Dets and not other, less hospitable ones. Now I'm not accusing WW of this in any way shape or form, but he did seem pretty pleased about being in that situation........
If person A can deploy and he/she does so more often in order to cover those who can't (person C), he/she will get more and more pissed off with always being the one going away and either leave or get a posting away from the front line. So now person B, who is still left on the squadron, will have to work even harder to cover the new hole that's left by person A and the Det duties of C, while any new staff are worked up to CR to replace A. All of this is a consequence of accepting long term non-deployable personnel on the front line.
The end result? Person A loses, person B loses, the squadron loses and in the end the Airforce loses overall. How can anyone think that is an acceptable state of affairs?........Oh, sorry I forgot. Person C wins!
I have no issue with people being used in other roles where their skills and experience can still be of great value, but the fact remains that if they remain on the front line and aren't deployable, then other squadron personnel will have to cover their deployed job. FACT!
I know of several instances of personnel who have a 'convenient' medical issue that means they can only go to certain nice Dets and not other, less hospitable ones. Now I'm not accusing WW of this in any way shape or form, but he did seem pretty pleased about being in that situation........
If person A can deploy and he/she does so more often in order to cover those who can't (person C), he/she will get more and more pissed off with always being the one going away and either leave or get a posting away from the front line. So now person B, who is still left on the squadron, will have to work even harder to cover the new hole that's left by person A and the Det duties of C, while any new staff are worked up to CR to replace A. All of this is a consequence of accepting long term non-deployable personnel on the front line.
The end result? Person A loses, person B loses, the squadron loses and in the end the Airforce loses overall. How can anyone think that is an acceptable state of affairs?........Oh, sorry I forgot. Person C wins!
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