TSR2 at 50
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Pontius - I think to some extent it was just a case of replacing what we already had - eg Canberra & Hunter.
Even if the Powers That Be had decided that it would be a nuclear war in Europe (= V-Bombers only need apply) there was still a lot of predicted use for conventional ground attack/strike - remember at that time we still had an Empire and were very active in the ME, Far East and Africa
Even if the Powers That Be had decided that it would be a nuclear war in Europe (= V-Bombers only need apply) there was still a lot of predicted use for conventional ground attack/strike - remember at that time we still had an Empire and were very active in the ME, Far East and Africa
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
HH, true as far as the WW deployment of Canberra and Hunter. Of course by the time Harrier etc arrived the game had changed. However, would the Harrier have been suitable as replacement for the Hunter and of course the Jag was intended a trainer until someone told Ted Heath
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Well the Jaguar story is one of the funniest around - two airforces decide to build an aeroplane to do two completely seperate jobs and each finish up buying it for the job the other country specified but notthe one they asked for originally......................
HH - I accept that is the short version, but can anyone give it a bit more meat. I was peripherally involved when I worked at Marshalls in 1969-70, as I got tasked as a production controller with getting a stand made over the weekend for an Adour engine and was told it was for something to do with the Jaguar programme.
The Jaguar programme began in the early 1960s with a RAF requirement for an advanced trainer to replace the Gnat T1 and Hunter T7 and a FAF requirement for ECAT (Tactical Combat Support Trainer) as a subsonic dual role trainer and light attack aircraft to replace the Magister, T-33 and Mystere IV.
There was then a MoU in 1965 to develop jointly a trainer based on ECAT and the larger Anglo-French Variable Geometry (AFVG).
Initially the RAF was to get 150 Jaguar "B" trainers, with the strike / attack requirements being met by the AFVG. The FAF was to get 75 Jaguar "E" trainers and 75 "A" single-seat strike / attack aircraft.
In 1967, France cancelled the AFVG on cost grounds. This left a gap in the RAF's planned strike / attack capabilities. Germany then expressed an interest in the Jaguar and so the design became more oriented towards the low-level strike / attack role.
With both TSR2 and P1154 cancelled, the RAF reviewed it's strike / attack requirements. The intention at this point was to get F-111 and AFVG. However, both F-111 and AVFG were seen as at risk of cancellation and the FAF was already looking at Jaguar for the strike role.
AVFG was cancelled in 1967 as was the RAF order for 48 x F-111K in 1968.
The RAF plan then switched to using Jaguar as a strike / attack aircraft - and the ratio of single-seat to two-seat was flip flopped to 165 GR1 and 35 T2 - previously the fleet was going to be predominantly two-seat.
This then allowed the Jaguar to replace the Phantom FGR2 in the strike / attack / recce role (a serious retrograde step !) freeing the latter up to replace the Lightning in the AD role (a serious upgrade).
The RAF then got the Hawk for advanced training and the FAF got the Alpha Jet. The GAF got the Alpha Jet for light attack as well. France cancelled the planned Jaguar "M" as a replacement for the Etendard and got the Super Etendard instead.
There was then a MoU in 1965 to develop jointly a trainer based on ECAT and the larger Anglo-French Variable Geometry (AFVG).
Initially the RAF was to get 150 Jaguar "B" trainers, with the strike / attack requirements being met by the AFVG. The FAF was to get 75 Jaguar "E" trainers and 75 "A" single-seat strike / attack aircraft.
In 1967, France cancelled the AFVG on cost grounds. This left a gap in the RAF's planned strike / attack capabilities. Germany then expressed an interest in the Jaguar and so the design became more oriented towards the low-level strike / attack role.
With both TSR2 and P1154 cancelled, the RAF reviewed it's strike / attack requirements. The intention at this point was to get F-111 and AFVG. However, both F-111 and AVFG were seen as at risk of cancellation and the FAF was already looking at Jaguar for the strike role.
AVFG was cancelled in 1967 as was the RAF order for 48 x F-111K in 1968.
The RAF plan then switched to using Jaguar as a strike / attack aircraft - and the ratio of single-seat to two-seat was flip flopped to 165 GR1 and 35 T2 - previously the fleet was going to be predominantly two-seat.
This then allowed the Jaguar to replace the Phantom FGR2 in the strike / attack / recce role (a serious retrograde step !) freeing the latter up to replace the Lightning in the AD role (a serious upgrade).
The RAF then got the Hawk for advanced training and the FAF got the Alpha Jet. The GAF got the Alpha Jet for light attack as well. France cancelled the planned Jaguar "M" as a replacement for the Etendard and got the Super Etendard instead.
Last edited by RAFEngO74to09; 21st Jan 2017 at 16:58.
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as I said you couldn't make it up - but the RAF finished up with a serious number (far more than they'd have got otherwise) of reasonable strike aircraft that gave sterling service
Can you imagine a 200 plane order these days?
Can you imagine a 200 plane order these days?
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#51/53/54: destroy!!
SOP is that Ministers decide to exercise the Break Clause. That sets (maybe 90 days) to rundown expenditure to zero, so on the day of Break, most persons booking to the job are fired and rundown their Notice. Contractors produce a list of kit, complete, incomplete and submit to (then MoA) for Disposal Instructions. MoA circulated these lists to Uncle Tom Cobley, as a chance to get good stuff at scrap price. (So here) BAC, BSEL, Ferranti could bid for anything from end-items to raw material - and they did; and others could bid for end items if they could see some purpose - and they did: MoA's Lectronics & GW branches took on various black boxes into concept development programmes which led on to many good things.
No one put in a bid for bespoke kit - complete/incomplete airframes, Special to Type Jigs & Tools, BOl.22Rs, Cumulus APU, because it was...bespoke. So MoA's Disposal Instructions were to scrap, and to terminate Contractors' space and succour charges NOW!
SOP. Somehow 2 airframes, various kit -B.Ol, Martin Baker, Cumulus, survived and are to be seen in Museums, or popping up on E-Bay. Ministers don't get involved with such things. Junk.
SOP is that Ministers decide to exercise the Break Clause. That sets (maybe 90 days) to rundown expenditure to zero, so on the day of Break, most persons booking to the job are fired and rundown their Notice. Contractors produce a list of kit, complete, incomplete and submit to (then MoA) for Disposal Instructions. MoA circulated these lists to Uncle Tom Cobley, as a chance to get good stuff at scrap price. (So here) BAC, BSEL, Ferranti could bid for anything from end-items to raw material - and they did; and others could bid for end items if they could see some purpose - and they did: MoA's Lectronics & GW branches took on various black boxes into concept development programmes which led on to many good things.
No one put in a bid for bespoke kit - complete/incomplete airframes, Special to Type Jigs & Tools, BOl.22Rs, Cumulus APU, because it was...bespoke. So MoA's Disposal Instructions were to scrap, and to terminate Contractors' space and succour charges NOW!
SOP. Somehow 2 airframes, various kit -B.Ol, Martin Baker, Cumulus, survived and are to be seen in Museums, or popping up on E-Bay. Ministers don't get involved with such things. Junk.
