Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Telegraph - RAF bare bones article

Wikiposts
Search
Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Telegraph - RAF bare bones article

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 26th Sep 2014, 22:36
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A Fine City
Age: 57
Posts: 991
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes on 7 Posts
Retired Radar Bod who spent his last 4 years in the service trying to manage a very important service (very aircraft related) that required 24/7 cover with a lack of experienced manpower (All Ranks) and when I got people totally 'Q'ed they were nicked for OOA on mass (almost 1/4 of the section on one occasion) or posted. Morale down the Sh!ter, plus no budget to deal with a number important issues raised due to changes enforced by the MAA. The RAF is broken, but it isn't my problem anymore.
MAINJAFAD is online now  
Old 26th Sep 2014, 22:45
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK.
Posts: 4,390
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
How much of the problem is due to paying fit men to sit on their arses whilst we import foreigners to do the work which they should be doing?
Or paying for the bastard children of runaway fathers. Nothing against bastards, just the runaway fathers - and the women who intentionally got themselves pregnant for the benefits.
Our social services need a root and branch overhaul.
Basil is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2014, 22:49
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: The Sunny Side
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Retired Radar Bod who spent his last 4 years in the service trying to manage a very important service (very aircraft related) that required 24/7 cover with a lack of experienced manpower (All Ranks) and when I got people totally 'Q'ed they were nicked for OOA on mass (almost 1/4 of the section on one occasion) or posted. Morale down the Sh!ter, plus no budget to deal with a number important issues raised due to changes enforced by the MAA. The RAF is broken, but it isn't my problem anymore.
Did I mention B&T? I will take that with a portion of chips!

S-D
salad-dodger is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2014, 23:31
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Lincs
Posts: 2,307
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
1.3VStall wrote

together with an unproven Typhoon strike capability
What is unproven about it?

Op Ellamy (Libya)

Sqn Ldr Bolton led the first ever Typhoon-only strike mission and a multi-aircraft COMAO at night against a target near Tripoli. Setting the scene Sqn Ldr Bolton told AIR International:

“We were due to fly with some French Rafales, a Growler, and tankers from France and the UK. Very bad weather in Corsica meant the Rafales were unable to safely get airborne or recover to their base leaving us and the Growler to continue the mission.”

He added: “Not only did we get airborne and strike our own targets we re-rolled whilst airborne and took out the targets assigned to the other aircraft also.”
'Typhoon a year on the road' pdf download is available at the following link.

http://www.baesystems.com/download/B...ar-on-the-road
TEEEJ is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2014, 05:39
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Somewhere Sunny
Posts: 1,601
Received 14 Likes on 8 Posts
Did I mention B&T?
Please enlighten us of the details of your private squabble. We really want to know.
Whenurhappy is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2014, 05:46
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 204
Received 5 Likes on 3 Posts
Is Typhoon cleared for Brimstone, Stormshadow, Raptor, gun yet?
PapaDolmio is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2014, 07:45
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Salad dodger "naive musings..." This is pprune. What were you expecting?

If senior officers -or anyone else -want to air their moans in the Daily Telegraph is it then reasonable to expect everyone to "just observe"?

Last edited by ShotOne; 27th Sep 2014 at 08:30.
ShotOne is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2014, 08:16
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Darling - where are we?
Posts: 2,580
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
Typhoon93, read something about the US Army's attempt to do a deep penetration AH-64 raid in Iraq during 2003. They did take a bit of a shoeing. One Apache shot down and most of the others damaged.
Apologies for thread drift, but correct. It was an 11 Attack Helicopter Regt mission up around Karbala that didn't go quite according to plan. To cut the long story very short, the coalition spent an eternity trying to work out how to degrade Saddam's 'traditional' IADS capability only for locals and militias on the ground to step up and fill the gaps using observers with hand held radios and telephones and their not inconsiderably supply of small arms and HMGs that was so prevalent. What had basically happened was that the 12 years of operating over Iraq to police the no fly zones between 1991 and 2003, as well as familiarising the coalition with Iraqi TTPs also enabled the Iraqis to get a good idea of our TTPs. Not such a problem if you're in a FJ either operating above the threat or with the speed and experience to be able to do something about it, but AH didn't have any of those luxuries operating low and slow in the heart of the small arms threat let alone the SAM threat and with crews that had little corporate experience of the AO being new to Theatre.

In that one night, the Iraqi militias did a good job of destroying the notion that we had air supremacy and instead made us realise that at best we had air superiority and even then, in the worst case scenario, only at a defined and local level when we could commit resources to ensuring it.

Fast forward to 2014, with the amount of kit including MANPADS floating round N Iraq - remember ISIL have been moving kit freely back and forth across the Iraqi Syrian border and have captured all sorts inc SA-16 and Air a Defence Artillery, then if you do put AH into Iraq, it should be with the expectation of losing a few.

Now, back to that small strike capability we've deployed! But don't forget we've had AT and ISR deployed since the start of this venture nigh on 2 months ago, so taking the whole package together it is quite a commitment for a now relatively small Air Force, but with SDSR round the corner, vital if we are to prevent losing even more capability next year.
Melchett01 is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2014, 10:30
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: A Fine City
Age: 57
Posts: 991
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes on 7 Posts
Melchett01

In other words, somebody in Iraq read a book on the history of air power including the chapter that covered how a technically and numerically inferior force can disrupt the operations of a superior one (examples would be Vietnam and the Battle of Britain (ROC)). Just because the some method of operation is old fashioned, doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Whenurhappy

Bitter and Twisted? Hardly. I don't know the other guy from Adam.
MAINJAFAD is online now  
Old 27th Sep 2014, 12:28
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
'We have too few aircraft, too few pilots and too much tasking' - didn't I recall the same scenario around this time 74 years ago?

Politicians are amateurs. Despite their first-class degrees in useless subjects and their supposedly mighty intellects, they learn nothing except how to pander to popularism. Their ability to look into the future, especially where military spending and capability is concerned, doesn't even make it to the end of their smug noses.

When the guano does hit the fan out they crawl out in an attempt to recover a situation of their own making. The 'political class' of the past 2 decades has reduced our Armed Forces to 2nd division levels of capability yet 'they' still have aspirations, nay delusions, of the Premier League. To extend the analogy, money has to be spent not only to get into the Premier League but, more pertinently, has to be spent to stay there and that is where we, as a nation, have been failed.

Amateurs the lot of them and not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier......or a pilot or nav or 'grunt' or 'bootneck'.
MaxReheat is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2014, 19:13
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: LONDON
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
An MP who does understand

ZZZZZZZZZZ

Last edited by ATFQ; 5th Jun 2016 at 07:14.
ATFQ is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2014, 19:24
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: UK
Age: 54
Posts: 503
Received 40 Likes on 10 Posts
ATFQ - I note you corrected his spelling of 'Marshal'
iRaven is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2014, 19:46
  #53 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: London
Age: 50
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
MP

Rather good to see an MP who appears to know what he is talking about and has got his facts straight. Parliament appears well stocked with former army officers who ruthlessly champion their old service. Good to have some balance. Not sure if it will have any effect mind....
Selatar is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2014, 19:59
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Today’s combat aircraft are more capable than those of 1991 but eventually technology cannot substitute for numbers
'Quantity has a quality all its own'. Lenin.
thing is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 05:28
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Between a rock and a hard place.
Age: 52
Posts: 125
Received 15 Likes on 5 Posts
So at a time where we are struggling to hang onto our ac techs we go and warn them off for on/off Ops for up to 3 years. Don't think even the new Techy pay will prevent large numbers from banging out.
4everAD is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 07:53
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I hate to say this but the next 5-10 years will see even more cuts - not just in defence but in everything else - the politicians are loth to say anything (or "forget") the deficit

Expect we'll be down to a couple of FJ squadrons by then
Heathrow Harry is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 11:05
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Darling - where are we?
Posts: 2,580
Received 7 Likes on 5 Posts
I hate to say this but the next 5-10 years will see even more cuts - not just in defence but in everything else - the politicians are loth to say anything (or "forget") the deficit
The latest thinking from RUSI on that front doesn't make for enjoyable reading when one considers the implications if they are correct:

'The Financial Context for the 2015 SDSR: The End of UK Exceptionalism?' argues that on current spending plans and growth projections UK defence spending is set to fall below the NATO 2 per cent target for the first time next financial year, to an estimated 1.88 per cent of GDP in 2015/16.

The briefing shows how existing Ministry of Defence (MoD) planning assumptions (for modest real-terms growth in its budget after 2015/16) would, in the context of projected GDP growth, see spending falling to around 1.7 per cent of GDP by 2020/21. Given wider government plans for spending cuts after 2015/16, however, this could prove over-optimistic. Further cuts in the 2015 Spending Review (of between 4 per cent and 10 per cent in real terms over five years) could see defence spending falling to between 1.5 per cent and 1.6 per cent of GDP in 2020/21.

Given the risk of further such cuts, the MoD’s interests would be best served by conducting the next SDSR in parallel with (rather than subsequent to) the 2015 Spending Review. This would help to ensure that government leaders (in both Nos. 10 and 11 Downing Street) are fully aware of the capability consequences of proposed spending cuts before they are finalised.

Because of the short time involved in such a schedule – perhaps only three months after the election before key capability choices need to be made – the MoD will need to complete much of the detailed work on the feasibility and cost-effectiveness of a range of possible policy options in advance of the May 2015 General Election. Without such work, ministers could find themselves – as in 2010 – being forced to make key decisions without adequate supporting data.
The full paper can be found here http://https://www.rusi.org/download..._2015_SDSR.pdf
Melchett01 is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 14:53
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
While I very much agree with those wanting to see the RAF being given the tools for the job, it's concerning to hear that some feel that a deployment of six aircraft will leave it "fundamentally broken". Is this a true statement? If so, how did we come to a point where deploying less than a twentieth of our fast jets can have such an effect?

Last edited by ShotOne; 28th Sep 2014 at 15:05.
ShotOne is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 15:02
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 4,334
Received 80 Likes on 32 Posts
Politicians are amateurs. Despite their first-class degrees in useless subjects and their supposedly mighty intellects, they learn nothing except how to pander to popularism. Their ability to look into the future, especially where military spending and capability is concerned, doesn't even make it to the end of their smug noses.


Oh, how very true!

LJ
Lima Juliet is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2014, 15:03
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 2,164
Received 46 Likes on 22 Posts
Not sure it is a twentieth of those held and funded at readiness.

By my maths we have 3 Tornado squadrons left and 3 out-of-area commitments for them….
Just This Once... is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.