CSAR...Why not?
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alfred,
Apologies if I did not make myself clear, but it was why I used the term 'develop'. We are all know too well now what works, and what doesn't. However, I personally believe that with little bit of political/high level direction and resourcing we can do both, with very little compromise (especially if it were acknowledged as an essential capability and flights/aircraft within Forces became specialised in this role).
Apologies if I did not make myself clear, but it was why I used the term 'develop'. We are all know too well now what works, and what doesn't. However, I personally believe that with little bit of political/high level direction and resourcing we can do both, with very little compromise (especially if it were acknowledged as an essential capability and flights/aircraft within Forces became specialised in this role).
Last edited by MaroonMan4; 23rd Sep 2014 at 06:02.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: East Midlands
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A CASE FOR CSAR
My Brooke-Popham Essay at Staff College in 1992 was about just that! We had already ventured into a very recent war against Iraq without a CSAR capability and many of my fellow aircrew from the Tornado GR1 world were languishing at 'Saddam's Pleasure', perhaps, for want of a UK capability to recover them before capture. My paper was fully supported by both the ASC hierarchy and the SAR office in Main Building, to whom I was invited to present my findings. The paper was retained by MOD to assist in the staffing of their own work.
Of course, there are issues of resources and priorities but, as I pointed out, there is no greater priority or expensive resource than aircrew in an offensive air war and their recovery from behind enemy lines should feature amongst the highest of priorities; not only aircrew but others of similar importance too.
Twenty-two years later and we are no further forward! With the loss of SAR, we will lose not only the assets but the expertise to carry out CSAR in the future should the requirement ever surface from within Whitehall!
Bloggs
Of course, there are issues of resources and priorities but, as I pointed out, there is no greater priority or expensive resource than aircrew in an offensive air war and their recovery from behind enemy lines should feature amongst the highest of priorities; not only aircrew but others of similar importance too.
Twenty-two years later and we are no further forward! With the loss of SAR, we will lose not only the assets but the expertise to carry out CSAR in the future should the requirement ever surface from within Whitehall!
Bloggs
The Italian Job
also not forgetting another of our NATO brethren: Italy
They have had HH-3F Pelican, AB212 now with the near CEASAR HH-101 and HH-139 and now been certified, the AW149
Around '99, the AMI held a CSAR / PRV exercise which involved HH-3F, their spec ops, AB212 as gunship support, Tornado IDS for the 'Sandy' role and AMX....plus AW-129 Mangusta for even more firepower.
Getting back to the French, around 7 years ago they did a CSAR exercise with the ALAT (saw it copy of the Swiss Helico magazine) - involved using one of the Gazelles and crews picking up the downed pilot.
Cannot remember off hand if we have conducted en mass a dedicated CSAR/PRV exercise....unless you count when I was a Air Cadet - post Gulf War, we tried an E and E exercise out on camp in Stanta and simulated rescue including a couple of empty (Cider) bottles to simultae the black box / recoverable flight data and had to run around avoid the CO and other senior cadets to pick them up AND then get rescue by our other mates!
Cheers
They have had HH-3F Pelican, AB212 now with the near CEASAR HH-101 and HH-139 and now been certified, the AW149
Around '99, the AMI held a CSAR / PRV exercise which involved HH-3F, their spec ops, AB212 as gunship support, Tornado IDS for the 'Sandy' role and AMX....plus AW-129 Mangusta for even more firepower.
Getting back to the French, around 7 years ago they did a CSAR exercise with the ALAT (saw it copy of the Swiss Helico magazine) - involved using one of the Gazelles and crews picking up the downed pilot.
Cannot remember off hand if we have conducted en mass a dedicated CSAR/PRV exercise....unless you count when I was a Air Cadet - post Gulf War, we tried an E and E exercise out on camp in Stanta and simulated rescue including a couple of empty (Cider) bottles to simultae the black box / recoverable flight data and had to run around avoid the CO and other senior cadets to pick them up AND then get rescue by our other mates!
Cheers
I believe the Merlin had an organic CSAR capability briefly when it first stood
Pretty much the next day the capability was put in to abeyance and hasn't to my knowledge been seen since for all the reasons discussed already.
Believe it or not, but we had CSAR plans in the 60s and V-force crews were briefed on both need 2 know and a want 2 know basis. If they didn't ask we didn't tell.
to ferry Westland staff back and forward on a daily basis as they were a little unwilling to set up a forward design office in the Med. Anyway, the beancounters stepped in and the otherwise perfectly good plan came unstuck.
RAAF F/A-18F's now in theatre. Who will do their CASR?
Australia has never had that capability. We use civil contracted base rescue choppers [S-76] and I guess it will be ring Army to see if they have a spare Blackhawk or MRH90 slick...bit like having hospitals and no ambulances
Australia has never had that capability. We use civil contracted base rescue choppers [S-76] and I guess it will be ring Army to see if they have a spare Blackhawk or MRH90 slick...bit like having hospitals and no ambulances
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Up until 1967 I believe it came under MI 9 or whatever passed for them at that time. It was then assessed that the escape lines were either compromised or had died out.
The replacement plan had a number of RV points and foraging area. Once there the plan was to hole up and wait . . .
The replacement plan had a number of RV points and foraging area. Once there the plan was to hole up and wait . . .
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Remember CSAR ends with a helicopter. You need SED/SEAD as well.
I once watched a number of Belgian Air Force F16s perform a waggon wheel over a target dropping a single BDU 33 at each pass. They achieved such close timing that the target was obscured with smoke. As an example of defence suppression to secure an LZ and allow a helicopter in, it was exemplary.
I once watched a number of Belgian Air Force F16s perform a waggon wheel over a target dropping a single BDU 33 at each pass. They achieved such close timing that the target was obscured with smoke. As an example of defence suppression to secure an LZ and allow a helicopter in, it was exemplary.
