CSAR...Why not?
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CSAR...Why not?
This question has been triggered by a comment on another thread; SAR is soon to be civilianised in UK, much lamented by some on this forum despite the fact that in many (most?) countries SAR has always been a civilian task. Yet we've never had CSAR capability, there's been no serious call or apparent interest in it. Why not? Surely given the present threats, this would be the most useful capability. And yes, I know there's no money but this long predates the present ££mess.
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Remember CSAR requires rather more than a helicopter.
Nick Richardson's story of EinE in Bosnia gives a good account of modern CSAR.
Even in the 60s we were reliant on the cousins and friends.
Nick Richardson's story of EinE in Bosnia gives a good account of modern CSAR.
Even in the 60s we were reliant on the cousins and friends.
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There has been interest in the RW world but never been seriously followed through in a joined up way.
As PN says a 'true' CSAR/JPR package is a huge undertaking; in fact, probably bigger and more diverse than any of our EAWs.
Therein lies the problem...
As PN says a 'true' CSAR/JPR package is a huge undertaking; in fact, probably bigger and more diverse than any of our EAWs.
Therein lies the problem...
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Believe it or not, but we had CSAR plans in the 60s and V-force crews were briefed on both need 2 know and a want 2 know basis. If they didn't ask we didn't tell.
JPR sounds great as a concept until you have to work out all the assets you need to do it really well. Its times like this that we benefit from NATO burden sharing - to do CSAR properly would mean some major structural and force changes to do it right, which could already be done by the cousins.
I believe the Merlin had an organic CSAR capability briefly when it first stood up but it takes a fair amount of training and the SH community have spent the past 10 years busy bouncing from one conflict to the other. There has barely been enough funding/serviceable aircraft to provide competent crews for Ops and give crews in the UK the minimum hours to be current let alone train for a specialist capability that isn't likely to be required!
Believe it or not, but we had CSAR plans in the 60s and V-force crews were briefed on both need 2 know and a want 2 know basis. If they didn't ask we didn't tell.
So you've nuked Leningrad, carried on east till you ran out of fuel and baled out. You're sitting on a hilltop in the Urals and you activate your sarbe. A Whirlwind appears out of nowhere and takes you off to some pre-arranged location?
No, perhaps not! So go on - it must be declassified by now - how was it going to work? Do tell!
Take France for example, they have EC725 Caracal with AAR capability and commandos that exercise all the time. Likewise with Spain, they have some CSAR capability with their AS532/AS332 and frequently exercise. The Turkish Air Force take CSAR seriously with AS532UL Cougars they took delivery several years ago.
Recently the French went to Davis-Monthan AFB and went on the Angel Thunder CSAR exercise, their Caracals took on fuel from the MC-130J Combat Spears
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4VW0PbQY7A
I seem to recall around 15 years back, the French were toying with the idea of buying some AC-130 Spectres and so did we....
What is the closest we have to an USAF PJ or Combat Controller probably a Rock Ape....or one of Herefords finest.....
Cheers,
Recently the French went to Davis-Monthan AFB and went on the Angel Thunder CSAR exercise, their Caracals took on fuel from the MC-130J Combat Spears
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4VW0PbQY7A
I seem to recall around 15 years back, the French were toying with the idea of buying some AC-130 Spectres and so did we....
What is the closest we have to an USAF PJ or Combat Controller probably a Rock Ape....or one of Herefords finest.....
Cheers,
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Indeed!
Yes Pontius, that sounds like a helluva tale - do tell!
I thought the plan for after you lot had dropped the buckets of sunshine was to carry on east and simply find the most comfortable yurt and compliant horse-maiden...!?
May be a CSAR mission would have been launched from Honkers, or the cousins would have gone in from Japan (the bits that weren't a smoking ruin)?
I thought the plan for after you lot had dropped the buckets of sunshine was to carry on east and simply find the most comfortable yurt and compliant horse-maiden...!?
May be a CSAR mission would have been launched from Honkers, or the cousins would have gone in from Japan (the bits that weren't a smoking ruin)?
Also, don't forget the process bollocks in all of this. There was a JPR working group, with 2 dozen members, looking at "all aspects" of JPR, from man overboard, to CSAR, to hostage rescue, to finding a lost bloke on a runashore, to recovering someone on one of the more interesting OpTours. With a remit that wide, it was never going to end well.
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Although a true CSAR capability requires political will and much Joint resourcing to be used (hopefully) hardly ever, the capability that is crying out to be developed further post the lessons from recent operations is a PEDRO style JPR/CASEVC. I think there have been a few UK Ops that were delayed or in the case of Amphibious ships diverted to pick up PEDRO call signs as they were viewed as essential enablers.
If the situation (including downed aircrew/isolated personnel) can be resolved within 5 minutes to within the 'Golden Hour' then there may not be the requirement for a full blown CSAR capability.
In these times of military resource and capability sharing we should continue to train and develop our MERT/IRT capability (into a PEDRO style) and also rely/contribute where possible to other nations genuine CSAR capability when we cannot resolve whatever issue it is within an hour. CSAR is still very important to those operating behind enemy lines (if there is such a distinction now), but (with apologies to the AWACS groupies) we also need to acknowledge that we do not bring much to this party, but can offer other capabilities instead.
Now that isn't a massive jump in resource requirement, the majority of corporate knowledge is still available and with a little 'school house' assistance from across the pond should see the development from MERT/IRT to PEDRO capability not that big. However, it will take a Joint approach (Fisheads will need to re-find and progress their old IRT skills when the other side of the globe on one of their grey tubs with only a few Wokkas whose lift capability cannot be 'wasted' on a high alert just sat on deck and the AH guys will need to go back to their old skills of the early Sangin days where they use to fire us in/provide protective cover to get us in to some of the more hotter LS'.
If the situation (including downed aircrew/isolated personnel) can be resolved within 5 minutes to within the 'Golden Hour' then there may not be the requirement for a full blown CSAR capability.
In these times of military resource and capability sharing we should continue to train and develop our MERT/IRT capability (into a PEDRO style) and also rely/contribute where possible to other nations genuine CSAR capability when we cannot resolve whatever issue it is within an hour. CSAR is still very important to those operating behind enemy lines (if there is such a distinction now), but (with apologies to the AWACS groupies) we also need to acknowledge that we do not bring much to this party, but can offer other capabilities instead.
Now that isn't a massive jump in resource requirement, the majority of corporate knowledge is still available and with a little 'school house' assistance from across the pond should see the development from MERT/IRT to PEDRO capability not that big. However, it will take a Joint approach (Fisheads will need to re-find and progress their old IRT skills when the other side of the globe on one of their grey tubs with only a few Wokkas whose lift capability cannot be 'wasted' on a high alert just sat on deck and the AH guys will need to go back to their old skills of the early Sangin days where they use to fire us in/provide protective cover to get us in to some of the more hotter LS'.
Last edited by MaroonMan4; 22nd Sep 2014 at 06:10.