Was the Lightning really THAT good ?
I'm not qualified in any sense to comment on the Lightning's capabilities, suffice it to say that my screensaver is a lovely picture of a Lightning in company with with a Victor K1 over the Alps*, two of the most visually appealing aircraft ever built IMOH.
Lightnings were my "stock in trade" during my six years on tankers, and their renowned thirst meant frequent visits to the hose for replenishment, thus reducing the time till we got back down and off to the bar! A highlight of my time at Marham was when I got a ride in a T4 when the Lightning OCU was lodging with us while Coltishall's runway was renewed My experience was similar to WASALOADIE'S, although I was somewhat taken aback when the pilot slipped on a pair of specs as part of his pre takeoff checks. Steely-eyed fighter pilots indeed!
*Sent to me by Lightning Mate, who I haven't seen for a while - hello LM if you are still around!
Lightnings were my "stock in trade" during my six years on tankers, and their renowned thirst meant frequent visits to the hose for replenishment, thus reducing the time till we got back down and off to the bar! A highlight of my time at Marham was when I got a ride in a T4 when the Lightning OCU was lodging with us while Coltishall's runway was renewed My experience was similar to WASALOADIE'S, although I was somewhat taken aback when the pilot slipped on a pair of specs as part of his pre takeoff checks. Steely-eyed fighter pilots indeed!
*Sent to me by Lightning Mate, who I haven't seen for a while - hello LM if you are still around!
Last edited by Tankertrashnav; 14th Oct 2015 at 09:21.
Didnt the Saab Draken achieve roughly similar performance (difficult to compare different variants at different stages of development) using just one Avon?
I am surprised by the criticism of the Firestreak & Red Top. My memory from my training is that the seaker head on these was far more sophisticated and sensitive than the equivalent Sidewinder and it wasnt until later marks of the AIM-9 that the seaker performance caught up?
I am surprised by the criticism of the Firestreak & Red Top. My memory from my training is that the seaker head on these was far more sophisticated and sensitive than the equivalent Sidewinder and it wasnt until later marks of the AIM-9 that the seaker performance caught up?
I recall Gunston's comments on the first flights of the P.1 and the first Saab 35, to the effect that the Saab pilot may have been more relaxed, since he had 70 per cent as much internal fuel and half the engines...
Just a numbered other
For those interested in the safety record of this brilliant aeroplane, have a look at 'Ligbtning Eject' by Peter Caygill.
It includes the story of bow Flt Lt Eric Steenson failed to get airborne in XR 711 and slid along Wattisham' s runway on his belly tank. Great bloke who signed me off as a 737 Skipper. Sadly passed away last month.
I can still feel my internal organs vibrating to the sound of a Lightning formation team at Farnborough '64.
It includes the story of bow Flt Lt Eric Steenson failed to get airborne in XR 711 and slid along Wattisham' s runway on his belly tank. Great bloke who signed me off as a 737 Skipper. Sadly passed away last month.
I can still feel my internal organs vibrating to the sound of a Lightning formation team at Farnborough '64.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Under Capricorn
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
More years ago than I care to recount, I saw a photo of a Lightning that had taken station on the port side of a Russian 'Bear', somewhere over the North Sea. In the Bear's bomb aimer's 'bubble' was a crew member who was waving and smiling. Rumour had it that the Lightning pilot was displaying an open Playboy centrefold to said Russian crewman. Does anyone have a copy of this?
Willi B - I have sent you a PM.
From my experience, opening up a centrefold of Playboy within the confines of a Lightning's cockpit would have been a feat of extraordinary origami. I assume that it is a copy of the photo that you want - not the Playboy centrefold
From my experience, opening up a centrefold of Playboy within the confines of a Lightning's cockpit would have been a feat of extraordinary origami. I assume that it is a copy of the photo that you want - not the Playboy centrefold
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Willib, I thought it was the other way around with the Bear showing the centre fold.
PN, I think your recollection is correct.
I remember seeing this pic in B&W (was it in "Air Clues" ?) with the rear crewman holding up the centrefold in the Bear aft (port?) bubble. Yes, the other way around, it would have been origami gymnastics by the WIWOL.
I remember seeing this pic in B&W (was it in "Air Clues" ?) with the rear crewman holding up the centrefold in the Bear aft (port?) bubble. Yes, the other way around, it would have been origami gymnastics by the WIWOL.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: earth
Posts: 1,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, Newt, considering that within 6 months of leaving Germany I was checked out on the F4 with Pulse Doppler radar, 4 genuine head-on missiles that did not need a target going fast enough for skin heat, 4 reliable IR missiles with better performance than Firestreak or Red Flop, a gun and enough fuel to loiter for more than a couple of hours - and it performed adequately for not only the AD role but Recce and GA too. Add nuclear strike to it's repertoire as well!
Yes, the Lightning was a superb sports machine and very impressive but not as good as people who did not operate a real war machine think.
I rest my case.
Yes, the Lightning was a superb sports machine and very impressive but not as good as people who did not operate a real war machine think.
I rest my case.
" soddim" it took you so long to answer I thought you may have departed the fix! Yes the F4 had all those things! You forgot to mention it also had a navigator to operate the weapons system. Not required in a Lighning! And we still used to score plenty of kills against them!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Swanning around at 15K looking low with PD for the bad guys - because that's what it was best at. However....
Post-USSR inspections of the Backfire/Blackjack revealed no low-level kit. Why not? It seems they tactics were to have been to ingress supersonic at about 50K and loft AS-4/AS-6 under heavy ECM, with the Mx penetrating at 80K+.
So, a "real war machine" in Vietnam, but in Cold War WWIII?
Tomb drivers had a sense of superiority..... Lightning drivers had fun......
Post-USSR inspections of the Backfire/Blackjack revealed no low-level kit. Why not? It seems they tactics were to have been to ingress supersonic at about 50K and loft AS-4/AS-6 under heavy ECM, with the Mx penetrating at 80K+.
So, a "real war machine" in Vietnam, but in Cold War WWIII?
Tomb drivers had a sense of superiority..... Lightning drivers had fun......
I am not one to post generally, but read with interest this and other threads.
My thoughts after tours on Lightning, F15, F4 and Tornado F3.
F15 overall best of the lot for weapons and handling, Lightning best for handling and raw performance, F4 good for weapons. F3 best for information.
However; F4 worst for handling, only behaved like a real fighter when almost empty of fuel.
Lightning best 'feel'. Shame about the lack of fuel and weapons, but hey you can't, have everything. We certainly had fun!
My thoughts after tours on Lightning, F15, F4 and Tornado F3.
F15 overall best of the lot for weapons and handling, Lightning best for handling and raw performance, F4 good for weapons. F3 best for information.
However; F4 worst for handling, only behaved like a real fighter when almost empty of fuel.
Lightning best 'feel'. Shame about the lack of fuel and weapons, but hey you can't, have everything. We certainly had fun!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: earth
Posts: 1,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Newt, every pilot has his memories of 'lots of kills' but those are personal victories and not often representative of true comparison or evaluation.
For example, within a few months of leaving the Lightning I went to Binbrook to pick up a diverted F4 with an exchange Marine Corps RIO with two Vietnam tours to his credit. He embarrassed me in the crewroom by shouting 'Any of you Lightning pilots want a fight?' We took off as a 1 v 2 and claimed kills on both repeatedly until they ran out of fuel. However, the cloudbase was around 400ft with tops over 30k and we were never VMC for any of the engagements so what would one expect?
I enjoyed the pleasure of flying the Lightning and the operational satisfaction of the F4.
For example, within a few months of leaving the Lightning I went to Binbrook to pick up a diverted F4 with an exchange Marine Corps RIO with two Vietnam tours to his credit. He embarrassed me in the crewroom by shouting 'Any of you Lightning pilots want a fight?' We took off as a 1 v 2 and claimed kills on both repeatedly until they ran out of fuel. However, the cloudbase was around 400ft with tops over 30k and we were never VMC for any of the engagements so what would one expect?
I enjoyed the pleasure of flying the Lightning and the operational satisfaction of the F4.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,803
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
@ MACH2NUMBER ... some might defer to your background, but I wouldn't hold your breath on this Thread!! 
Interesting insight, though
Interesting insight, though