Was the Lightning really THAT good ?
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LO #75: splendid find, many thanks. Nahum presents MoS' 1947 assignment of the supersonic research job to EE as due to their "more sound management" than was then common in UK Aero (and to EE's possession of WEW Petter). He also presents selection of (to be) Lightning in 1957 in preference to mixed-powerplant SR.177 as due to Avon's evolving grunt, which, he suggests, had no benefit from German aero-engine technology.
Others have traced the IR sensors of Firestreak/Red Top to German work. Ferranti AI23 AIRPASS evolved in reciprocal partnership with Westinghouse. Very little in 1950s was wholly British: we shared RAE technical papers with US (and France).
LO's link has rapid climb-to-height as the defining attribute from Day 1: knock down incoming (Sov. V-craft equivalents) head-on, first pass is the last. US had Arctic depth, so F-102/F-106+BOMARC. UK did not, so...was Lightning that good: certainly, for the Specified job. That is why the reviled Sandys retained it, 4/57, when deleting so much else.
Others have traced the IR sensors of Firestreak/Red Top to German work. Ferranti AI23 AIRPASS evolved in reciprocal partnership with Westinghouse. Very little in 1950s was wholly British: we shared RAE technical papers with US (and France).
LO's link has rapid climb-to-height as the defining attribute from Day 1: knock down incoming (Sov. V-craft equivalents) head-on, first pass is the last. US had Arctic depth, so F-102/F-106+BOMARC. UK did not, so...was Lightning that good: certainly, for the Specified job. That is why the reviled Sandys retained it, 4/57, when deleting so much else.
Thanks, Ken...
Just to amplify a little: in 1951, contemporary with the P.1 windtunnel model in the Nahum paper, no practical Mach 2 fighter design existed in the US. The F-104 was as yet not conceived and the F-102 was being built in its pre-Area Rule and unsuccessful initial shape. The second-best supersonic design to have reached that stage by 1951 may have been the Draken!
Just to amplify a little: in 1951, contemporary with the P.1 windtunnel model in the Nahum paper, no practical Mach 2 fighter design existed in the US. The F-104 was as yet not conceived and the F-102 was being built in its pre-Area Rule and unsuccessful initial shape. The second-best supersonic design to have reached that stage by 1951 may have been the Draken!
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Another WIWOL tale here on the RAeS website today...
Royal Aeronautical Society | Insight Blog | Bolt into the BLUE
Royal Aeronautical Society | Insight Blog | Bolt into the BLUE
Yeah, 1.3, I know. Just sticking up for the Navs. BTW, apart from flying the aircraft, what was the main thing that Phantom Navs didn't really do - despite their branch name? Should be a good opening for some interesting answers, I guess.
Ho hum.
Ho hum.
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We're all struggling a bit to recall what might constitute such an offense when the number 4 (I think, might have been 3, but it's not relevant) admits to a lag-pursuit roll to switch sides on the rejoin for the break.
. Re the OP's question; as a missile chappie the Firestreak had the best performance but it wasn't all aspect so had 'less to do' as it were. There was some concern over the Red Top's performance. I think given a choice most WIWOLs would have gone with a couple of Firestreaks.
I was part of a team that did a feasibility study into fitting four 'winders in place of the two RT/Firestreaks. It was a bit late in the day though to be cost effective and as I remember there was no where to put the cooling bottles for the 'winders. They wouldn't fit where the ammonia bottles went in the pylons.
Pride of place in my office is my Firestreak nosecone with a model Lightning inside in a vertical climb (surprise, surprise), and just to show even handedness it has 11 Sqdn markings on one side, 5 on the other and a pair of Red Tops!
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Courtney
ISTR that in RAFG F4 air defenders the pilot was responsible for navigation..... Or as someone else said "One small seat for navigators, one big step backwards for mankind".....
ISTR that in RAFG F4 air defenders the pilot was responsible for navigation..... Or as someone else said "One small seat for navigators, one big step backwards for mankind".....
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Horsham, England, UK. ---o--O--o---
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The Lightning was good enough to make a Massive Impression on me at a certain Biggin Hill Airshow!
As a youngster in the Air Training Corps, the all Silver star of the show, how can I say. Oh yes, all those vertical climbs with the chest reverberating sound of freedom; made my want to join the RAF.
As a youngster in the Air Training Corps, the all Silver star of the show, how can I say. Oh yes, all those vertical climbs with the chest reverberating sound of freedom; made my want to join the RAF.
Lightning area rule?
Just a curiosity about area ruling on this era of aircraft. I know about the F102 redesign to get the perfomance back but did the Lightning / Draken / F104 design teams know about this quirk beforehand or did they stop and incorporate it?
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Wasn't the T.4/5 the fastest mark of Lightning due to the 'area rule' effect of the bulged forward fuselage? Or did I just imagine it? I'm sure I read it somewhere...
-RP
p.s. I think the two seat Hunter variants enjoyed the same speed advantage too for the same reason, although I may have imagined that as well!
-RP
p.s. I think the two seat Hunter variants enjoyed the same speed advantage too for the same reason, although I may have imagined that as well!
OLD RED DAMASK
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My first ATC camp was at Coltishall at 226 OCU. As a kid was so enthralled seeing them take off.
Best view I had was at school in Blackpool one day when the TSR 2 flew over with a Lightning either side.
Best view I had was at school in Blackpool one day when the TSR 2 flew over with a Lightning either side.
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A bit about the 102 and 106.
F-106 Delta Dart - Specifications
The F-106 was quite a bit faster than the Lightning and did it on a single engine.....1535 mph with a climb rate of 29,000 fpm and a range of 2,700 miles.
The Lightning stats show 1300 mph, climb rate of 20,000 fpm, and a range of 855 miles.
F-106 Delta Dart - Specifications
The F-106 was quite a bit faster than the Lightning and did it on a single engine.....1535 mph with a climb rate of 29,000 fpm and a range of 2,700 miles.
The Lightning stats show 1300 mph, climb rate of 20,000 fpm, and a range of 855 miles.
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Read 'The Lightning Boys' by Richard Pike! A collection of 'war stories' by the pilots who flew it.
Chapter 1 - There I was at 30,000ft when I had a No1 Engine Fire!
Chapter 2 - There I was at 30,000ft when I had a No1 Engine Fire!
Chapter 3 - There I was at 30,000ft when I had a No1 Engine Fire!
Chapter 4 - There I was at 30,000ft when I had a No1 Engine Fire!
Chapter 5 - There I was at 30,000ft when I had a No1 Engine Fire!
Chapter 6 - There I was at 30,000ft when I had a No1 Engine Fire!
...and on and on and on!
Anyway, you get my drift and that tells you something about the Lightning's reliability!
Look here:
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ms...a=0&dg=feature
And you'll see a map of Lightning losses and just how far they got to/from base before they speared in!
Bloggs
Here to help!
PS. The entry for XR768: October 29th 1974 on the map is wrong. I was bombing on Wainfleet Range that afternoon when we heard the Mayday from Tex Jones just before he ejected. We cleared the range and, in a Buccaneer, assisted the rescue chopper (Whirlwind, if I recall) who had no Violet Picture with locating the survivor in tumultuous seas just before dusk. Tex Jones did survive because he rang me afterwards to thank me for 'raising his morale' as he sat being tossed around in his dinghy and we orbited overhead - he promised a crate of beer as a reward... ...it never arrived! That's Lightning pilots for you!
Chapter 1 - There I was at 30,000ft when I had a No1 Engine Fire!
Chapter 2 - There I was at 30,000ft when I had a No1 Engine Fire!
Chapter 3 - There I was at 30,000ft when I had a No1 Engine Fire!
Chapter 4 - There I was at 30,000ft when I had a No1 Engine Fire!
Chapter 5 - There I was at 30,000ft when I had a No1 Engine Fire!
Chapter 6 - There I was at 30,000ft when I had a No1 Engine Fire!
...and on and on and on!
Anyway, you get my drift and that tells you something about the Lightning's reliability!
Look here:
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ms...a=0&dg=feature
And you'll see a map of Lightning losses and just how far they got to/from base before they speared in!
Bloggs
Here to help!
PS. The entry for XR768: October 29th 1974 on the map is wrong. I was bombing on Wainfleet Range that afternoon when we heard the Mayday from Tex Jones just before he ejected. We cleared the range and, in a Buccaneer, assisted the rescue chopper (Whirlwind, if I recall) who had no Violet Picture with locating the survivor in tumultuous seas just before dusk. Tex Jones did survive because he rang me afterwards to thank me for 'raising his morale' as he sat being tossed around in his dinghy and we orbited overhead - he promised a crate of beer as a reward... ...it never arrived! That's Lightning pilots for you!
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Best view I had was at school in Blackpool one day when the TSR 2 flew over
with a Lightning either side.
A more relevant memory is a cadet camp at Geilenkirchen, where 3 Sqn had Canberras (with special weapons), 92 Sqn had Lightnings, 60 Sqn had Pembrokes and I started learning about German beer. I have a vague memory that we beat the Germans at some big football match that year, but soccer's never been my sport...
I particularly remember the Lightning in the hangar which had gone into the safeland barrier when the braking chute failed to deploy. Both engines were out so they could rewire the aircraft, so it certainly wasn't designed for ease of maintenance