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Scottish Defence Force?

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Scottish Defence Force?

Old 17th Sep 2014, 19:52
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Whether they like it or not, short of carving them off and letting them drift off into the Atlantic, the Scots will always be British, Scotland being a sizeable chunk of the island (Britain, Great Britain, or even British Isles).
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Old 17th Sep 2014, 20:26
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Whatever the historical basis of our name, there no imperative to change it just because Wee Eck wants to go walkabout. Nor does he get to tell us what colour we paint our warplanes, even if he wins!
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Old 17th Sep 2014, 21:54
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Scotland was only the latest kingdom to join the United Kingdom. Prior kingdoms subsumed within the United Kingdom were: East Anglia, Essex, Kent, Mercia, Northumbria, Sussex and Wessex
They formed the Kingdom Of England and have done so since the 10th century. The Principality of Wales was incorporated into the Kingdom of England in 1536. It wasn't a kingdom and it wasn't united.

The term United Kingdom was not used until after the Union Act of 1707. The Kingdom of Scotland was not subsumed. It joined, in an act of Union not absorption, with the Kingdom Of England to form the hitherto unknown Kingdom of Great Britain. The UK did not exist before 1707.

The last kingdom to join the UK was the Kingdom of Ireland in 1801. We then had the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, 3 Kingdoms united politically.

When Ireland was partitioned in 1922 Northern Ireland elected to remain as part of the UK. There was never a Kingdom of Northern Ireland, so when Eire was declared a republic in 1949, the Kingdom of Ireland ceased to exist.

So what we have is:-

There are only 2 Kingdoms in the UK, Scotland and England. If they were no longer united then there is in fact no longer a United Kingdom.

There would be 2 nations, the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England (which includes Wales) and Northern Ireland.
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Old 17th Sep 2014, 22:39
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Originally Posted by Avionker
The term United Kingdom was not used until after the Union Act of 1707. The Kingdom of Scotland was not subsumed. It joined, in an act of Union not absorption, with the Kingdom Of England to form the hitherto unknown Kingdom of Great Britain. The UK did not exist before 1707.
Well after 1707, 94 years after. The term "United Kingdom" was never used officially to describe the union of England/Wales and Scotland until Ireland joined in the union.
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Old 18th Sep 2014, 07:12
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That's very interesting but frankly, so what? Whatever the historical etymology, our country is called what it's called, whatever Mr Salmond wants to do in his Scottish Socialist Republic.
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Old 18th Sep 2014, 08:43
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That's very interesting but frankly, so what?
I totally agree, ShotOne, there is no international agreement or directive which directs how one should name a nation. The historical context is interesting, but irrelevant.
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Old 18th Sep 2014, 08:44
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Seems to be cheesing certain people off, the fact that we can call our country the UK after Scotland leaves and carry on regardless of whether they're in or out.

To use the vernacular of today's Yoof:

"Bovvered."

Scottish Socialist Republic
Shouldn't that be United Scottish Socialist Republic, nobodies using that abbreviation anymore, it's available.
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Old 18th Sep 2014, 08:51
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Originally Posted by Surplus
Seems to be cheesing certain people off, the fact that we can call our country the UK after Scotland leaves and carry on regardless of whether they're in or out.
Indeed. There seems to be a fair few very bitter people within the yes campaign who are not just happy to go their own way but desperately want to take 'The United Kingdom' with them too, even though (as evidenced) they have no claim to it.
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Old 18th Sep 2014, 09:08
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So what now?

Change of tack - maybe needs a new thread, but here goes.

So votes are now being cast. So if the answer is yes, does that mean an 8% defence cut, or an effective increase in spending? Guessing the former, so what gets cut? Can we really do without 16 typhoons? Is MPA dead? How many F35 could we buy? How many T26 can we get away with? Can the army really lose the battalions? If AS really gets a RM commando, can 3 brigade really operate with 2 commandos and the Devon and Dorsets (sorry a rifles battalion) trident well!!

Worrying times!
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Old 18th Sep 2014, 09:47
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Why would AS get a RM Cdo Unit? The Royal Marines are a British formation and cannot be given away.

What could happen is AS can ask any Scottish RM if they want to transfer to the Army of Scotland, the same as he will have to ask members of other services. I dont think he'll be hurt in the rush....
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Old 18th Sep 2014, 10:11
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Sorry, was just quoting what I read was on his shopping list. He just said marines of course, not exactly what he expects.

Of course your point of how he gets the volunteers is completely agreed.
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Old 18th Sep 2014, 10:37
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Whats up Beagle ??, why the vitriol ??, did you come home one day to find a Scotsman hanging onto the back of your wife and dangling his 1250 in front of her so she could see what he looked like ??

I am a Scot, a so called "inbred" as you call us and while reading your comments I smiled. You dont anger me, you amuse me. Because I bet while playing the Internet Warrior you wouldn't have the guts to say that to anyone's face would you ?? .. You remind me of a certain Flt Lt I worked with on my last tour. He had a thing about disliking us Scots, he was very vocal about it and on more than one occasion pulled rank to do it. He took particular pleasure in mocking my daughters Scottish christian name. A few years after I left I was invited back to a social function and met up with a lot of old mates, but here was said Flt Lt, still using his rank to be a git. During a discussion he made a few digs at me, his finale was to call me a "Porridge Wog". At that point he was gripped by the neck, dragged outside by the windpipe and I quietly explained to him that I now outranked him, I outearned him, I drove a better car, was better looking with more hair and my other half didn't look like the back end of a bus decorated with a face like a bulldog licking urine off nettles. I then reminded him if he made another comment like that I would be out of prison long before he left the hospital. At least he had the stones to say it to people's faces. Unlike you. I'll bet, for all your mouth, you would struggle to fight sleep.

You are thankfully a rarity, clearly one of the officers us lowly "Didn't try hard enough at school" types followed through curiosity. I see myself as a Scot because my mother was Scottish and I was born here. But my father was English so I am the full on Brit if you like. And I do see myself as British and that's why I voted No this morning because for all our faults and disagreements together we are greater than the sum of our parts. However I feel ashamed I share a heritage with a full on brain donor like you.

PS .. I think VC-10's are crap and my heroes in life are Buccaneer pilots who passed the OCU.
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Old 18th Sep 2014, 10:49
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Outstanding OA! It needed to be said.

I think VC-10's are crap
Best put down ever ;-)
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Old 18th Sep 2014, 12:08
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should enough dribbling inbreds sway their way to the polls to vote 'Och aye the noo' tomorrow.
It would appear that we don't have a monopoly on dribbling inbreds.
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Old 18th Sep 2014, 12:41
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It seems BEagles offending post has been removed.....

Edit...perhaps not - my mistake - but just in case

Originally posted by BEagle
'Britain' would be fine, should enough dribbling inbreds sway their way to the polls to vote 'Och aye the noo' tomorrow.

Still, at least if they do we won't have to continue pretending to enjoy listening to cat-strangling, eating sheep's innards and listening to incoherent gibberish every January 25th (or thereabouts - they can't even agree the date.... )
OA

You missed off second tourist F4 pilots from your list of heroes
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Old 18th Sep 2014, 12:50
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I'm not saying that it's right, but it's happening.

Jeez, Offshore Addict, you'll feel better for getting that off your chest, I'm sure.

I don't share your doubts about Beagle saying it to PWs in public. He's never been shy to say how much he despises us. He's allowed to have an opinion, and to share it.

By tomorrow morning we will know what the will of the people is, and we can start to make the best of it.

As for Men & Equipment, if it's a Yes, and there is a shortage of volunteers for the Armed Forces of Scotland, the basics of "better than no job" might be all that it takes to entice enough people to come and work here. The BritMil NEM might be all the recruitment incentive that Scotland needs.

We are not going to need much of an Army, we only have a land border with one country, so we only need to defend against England (or whoever conquers England) invading us. The Scots managed that before when the Romans came up here.

I doubt that the US will let England be overrun and I also doubt that the rest of Europe, or the US, will let England invade an independent Scotland, so... a small Army will do fine.

If we get a Yes, then we might well piss away the Oil Revenue on short term Social Justice, as some have suggested, but what matters more than what we do with it, is that England will not be able to do anything with it. That's what has provided the focus for the mainstream politicians.

So, Nuclear subs to the USA for all the support they currently get at Faslane/Coulport. If the RN can operate with them in one foreign country then why not another?

A much reduced Army needed up here, as well as in the south, which will generate both a talent pool for Scotland to cherry pick from, and a wave of unemployment in England.

As for Typhoon, my view is that we really don't need any of them.

For those who insist that we need to "defend" against the soviet hordes I'd suggest reading back over the old posts on pprune about how they can't do away with the Nimrods or reduce the number of Police Helicopters.

People said that we can't operate the Trident boats without the Nimrod, in one guise or another, to operate in conjunction with them. Well...... the world still turns.

As an island nation, we need to have LRMPA it seemed, but hey ho, the world still turns.

The loss of the Harrier was going to be sore and was the wrong choice to make when it was the better aircraft for the job in hand. Harrier scrapped, world still turning.

Civvy tankers on huge PFA contracts destroying capability, British Aerospace ripping the arse out of the budgets, wars being fought in order to spend money with arms manufacturers rather than to protect our own people. Look at who is getting that money and you'll see who is really running the country.

Scotland can avoid that by not having a huge military budget to be pilfered.


If it's a No vote, then we can expect to see revolt in the Tory ranks when DC has to give us the Milk & Honey. His alternative is to backtrack and be shown to be a liar. He, and the Tories will not be able to pull that one again next time. That's what makes it so funny that all main parties have said they will give us more autonomy.

If we vote No today, and ask the question again in five years, nobody will believe anything from Westminster unless they have kept to their word, which the MPs from the deep south are not going to let them do.

Either way, the short term future for Scotland & England is not great, but we will turn the corner sooner if we get a Yes.
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Old 18th Sep 2014, 13:07
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Originally Posted by airpolice
If it's a No vote, then we can expect to see revolt in the Tory ranks when DC has to give us the Milk & Honey. His alternative is to backtrack and be shown to be a liar.
The "milk and honey" is nothing but words, and if the outcome is NO, the Scottish issue will be quickly ignored. As for being "shown to be a liar" he's a politician: it goes with the job. What's he got to lose this side of the border? Virtually no-one here votes for his party anyway.

This is one of several reasons why the outcome is balanced on a knife edge.
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Old 18th Sep 2014, 13:20
  #298 (permalink)  
 
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There's some 'resentment' down here at Scottish meddling in English affairs as a result of the heritage of many senior Labour parliamentarians.
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Old 18th Sep 2014, 14:07
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The roundel brings up an interesting thought, as you have to be licenced to utilize it on your products, could Scotland now veto it's usage on certain items and also claim royalties on their part of it if independence is forthcoming..
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Old 18th Sep 2014, 14:09
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WW,

"Meddling in English affairs" is putting it mildly. How about the Scots totally feckin' up the UK economy for decades starting with Tony Bliar and continuing through cyclops and Darling!
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