Scottish Defence Force?
d55:-
I'm with you there draken, but the law of unforeseen consequences kicks in yet again and there's no going back now, is there? So a confident and empowered Scottish Parliament, knowing that 45% voted for full independence anyway, isn't happy with the UK Government offering the UK population a referendum about leaving the EU. It passes a motion decrying the move and the Scottish Government begins a campaign to oppose it. It can't? Just wait and see... The Scottish Parliament similarly votes against the UK finally agreeing to US pressure to bomb IS in Iraq. It can't? Just wait and see...
I can't see any of this working other than to play into the hands of the YES campaign. You can't be half independent, you are or you aren't, and almost half the Scottish voting population wants 'you are'. Similarly the much talked of balancing act in England, of Regional Assemblies, will have the effect of emasculating the UK Government's authority, producing clones of Derek Hatton's Liverpool Council to produce anarchy throughout the land. Great stuff if you are an Anarchist of course, but bad news for we boring old farts wanting stability.
The Scottish Referendum was the first round of a game of Russian Roulette with the pistol held permanently to the UK's temple. The only way we can prevent it eventually going off is to give them what they want beforehand, ie full independence, either directly or as a consequence of seizing it for England first. Unforeseen consequences...
devolve all bar Defence and Foreign Policy. Most in Scotland would run with that even those like me who would have preferred we never started down this road in the first place.
I can't see any of this working other than to play into the hands of the YES campaign. You can't be half independent, you are or you aren't, and almost half the Scottish voting population wants 'you are'. Similarly the much talked of balancing act in England, of Regional Assemblies, will have the effect of emasculating the UK Government's authority, producing clones of Derek Hatton's Liverpool Council to produce anarchy throughout the land. Great stuff if you are an Anarchist of course, but bad news for we boring old farts wanting stability.
The Scottish Referendum was the first round of a game of Russian Roulette with the pistol held permanently to the UK's temple. The only way we can prevent it eventually going off is to give them what they want beforehand, ie full independence, either directly or as a consequence of seizing it for England first. Unforeseen consequences...
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seizing it for England first
I think it probably isn't a good idea to get too gloomy about things just at the moment. This is an uncertain time - after a great shock - every judgement is going to be a bit out of whack.
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That's what I meant about never starting down this road Chugalug2. It's now all what if's.
What did the 45% or the 55% really want other than Independence for the former and something else for the latter. Independence was a life long desire for some, a painless option for others based on dubious assertions (same currency and continued EU membership). Will we ever know the truth? Did No win through thanks to a promise of more powers? We will never know that either as the PM ruled out a Devo Max option on the voting paper.
FM Salmond complained that Westminster cuts meant he was unable to do more about social issues but his Government imposed a rates freeze for years starving Councils of additional funds. He never used enhanced powers already granted by Westminster to vary Income Tax by up to 3% up or down. Perhaps no great surprise in the long, long build up to the referendum but a moot point if he really wanted to redistribute income.
The SNP and UKIP both press the same buttons. DC wants an EU referendum like a hole in the head. He got maneuvered into the promise but to deliver it, he still needs to win next year so is now trying to counter UKIP and Labour down south by playing the English card.
Our Yes voters will do his work for him in Scotland's Labour heartlands. I also doubt quite so many voters elsewhere in Scotland will be as willing to vote for the SNP at any level other than Local Council Elections simply to avoid the danger of going through this process again soon. Perhaps our one Conservative MP will have some friends next year.
A post 2016 Scottish Parliament could still have a large element of hardcore Nationalists but it might never be in the position it was in last week to call the shots.
What did the 45% or the 55% really want other than Independence for the former and something else for the latter. Independence was a life long desire for some, a painless option for others based on dubious assertions (same currency and continued EU membership). Will we ever know the truth? Did No win through thanks to a promise of more powers? We will never know that either as the PM ruled out a Devo Max option on the voting paper.
FM Salmond complained that Westminster cuts meant he was unable to do more about social issues but his Government imposed a rates freeze for years starving Councils of additional funds. He never used enhanced powers already granted by Westminster to vary Income Tax by up to 3% up or down. Perhaps no great surprise in the long, long build up to the referendum but a moot point if he really wanted to redistribute income.
The SNP and UKIP both press the same buttons. DC wants an EU referendum like a hole in the head. He got maneuvered into the promise but to deliver it, he still needs to win next year so is now trying to counter UKIP and Labour down south by playing the English card.
Our Yes voters will do his work for him in Scotland's Labour heartlands. I also doubt quite so many voters elsewhere in Scotland will be as willing to vote for the SNP at any level other than Local Council Elections simply to avoid the danger of going through this process again soon. Perhaps our one Conservative MP will have some friends next year.
A post 2016 Scottish Parliament could still have a large element of hardcore Nationalists but it might never be in the position it was in last week to call the shots.
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Why? You have to be either highly prejudicial or ignorant of his political calibre and achievements to say something like that. Somebody already said it here but I can't help but think that in a few years time we will all have something to thank Salmond for. Our UK political establishment has been given one almighty shake that may yet just save it.
In any respect, Salmond will be remaining on the scene yet for some time.
Tom
In any respect, Salmond will be remaining on the scene yet for some time.
Tom
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Yup said as much, he has simply stood down from the leadership position. An when asked about the once in a lifetime referendum, he said that was his policy, he cannot speak for his replacement.
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FM Salmond complained that Westminster cuts meant he was unable to do more about social issues but his Government imposed a rates freeze for years starving Councils of additional funds. He never used enhanced powers already granted by Westminster to vary Income Tax by up to 3% up or down. Perhaps no great surprise in the long, long build up to the referendum but a moot point if he really wanted to redistribute income.
I'm quite surpised that more hadn't been made of the freeze on Council Tax (5 years now I think) which whilst great for us as individuals means automatically that Councils have to cut services. These are some of the very cuts in services that the Yes campaign were blaming solely on Westminster.
As far as the tax varying powers already in place, why would the SNP use them - it would make them unpopular, and they couldn't place so much of the blame for social injustices on Westminster (also it may affect their chances of re-election, and what politician is intentionally going to risk their chance of getting a place at the trough).
Perhaps the wounds in Scotland from last week may just about have healed before Nicola Sturgeon (who seems a shoe in for leader) opens them again.
One spin-off from the continuing talk of another referendum in the near(-ish) future may be an unwillingness on the part of Westminster to upgrade any of the infrastructure at Lossie/Kinloss. Whoever takes over the SNP may need to consider that. Stability and co-operation is needed now.
Last edited by The Stimulator; 22nd Sep 2014 at 03:15. Reason: Add a sentence about Lossie/Kinloss.
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Salmond was told he was wrong, by a convincing margin. He was given his chance to persuade his countrymen, and failed. He resigned, as was appropriate, and Scotland moves on.
What else is there to discuss? Anyone with any thoughts of the Scots going their own way is wrong. The political will to do so is simply not there. For every 9 men who said yes, 11 men said no.
What else is there to discuss? Anyone with any thoughts of the Scots going their own way is wrong. The political will to do so is simply not there. For every 9 men who said yes, 11 men said no.
"There you have it, democracy in action. We'll run instead."
Like a divided Scotland?
All that has happened is it has been made more visible. In other parts of the UK it is a festering sore. Scotland now knows where it stands and must move on, and the vast majority will. It showed the way and others, such as English regions or even large conurbations, will know not to trust the words of Westminister politicians when they promise change if their vote is No. You never know, Scotland may reap the harvest of that future uncertainty.
Gordon Brown's reaction will be interesting. His was a clever move, letting the 3 stooges sign up to change, and be the public voice of their promises. He may make a second career out of constantly reminding the electorate they've been shafted.
