Hawk 40th Anniversary
Thread Starter
Hawk 40th Anniversary
On the 21st August 1974 the first Hawk T Mk1, XX154, flew for the first time from Dunsfold in the capable hands of Duncan Simpson. Therefore, today is the 40th anniversary of that notable event.
XX154 is still flying from Boscombe Down, mainly used by ETPS for training test pilots and Flight Test Engineers. As of today it has flown 5516 hours, and it did fly today from Boscombe and I believe it was seen in the skies over both Dunsfold and RAF Valley.
The RAF took delivery of the first aircraft in November 1976 and the first course to fly the Hawk at 4 FTS, RAF Valley, commenced in July 1977. That is an interesting timescale when compared to some later procurement programmes.
XX154 is still flying from Boscombe Down, mainly used by ETPS for training test pilots and Flight Test Engineers. As of today it has flown 5516 hours, and it did fly today from Boscombe and I believe it was seen in the skies over both Dunsfold and RAF Valley.
The RAF took delivery of the first aircraft in November 1976 and the first course to fly the Hawk at 4 FTS, RAF Valley, commenced in July 1977. That is an interesting timescale when compared to some later procurement programmes.
I recall turning up at a Kemble airshow to find that they were marking the 40th Anniversary of the Gnat. I asked at the Gnat" enclosure if former students were included and was invited in. Watched the Reds of that year display in front of may former Arrows from the Gnat years, and when one of them said "Red ? is 6" out of position", he meant it. Also met several instructors from my Gnat course days. Gold plated memory.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Erehwon
Posts: 1,146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In all seriousness, hat's off to the Hawk, the crews and those who have maintained it at all levels.
It's been a superb training platform and doing well in its latest iterations.
It's been a superb training platform and doing well in its latest iterations.
The Hawk
I often get treated to people whinging about the Hawk but as far as I'm concerned it's a bloody great training aircraft and far superior to it's competitors. It's no surprise it has shown such longevity.
I may be slightly biased though.
BV (1755 Hawk hours and counting, also A2 on T1, T2 and 115 and T1 QWI).
I may be slightly biased though.
BV (1755 Hawk hours and counting, also A2 on T1, T2 and 115 and T1 QWI).
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: UK
Age: 30
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Hawk is a great aircraft - can't understand why anyone who claims to be interested in military jets would complain about it to be honest, although that's just my opinion.
I remember seeing a Hawk,XX154?, at Luqa in the summer of 1975. It was doing Hot trials and I think it also flew out of Cairo.
I didn't work on them but handled quite a few through VASF at Kinloss. We had a detachment of nine, from Valley,(no groundcrew)for a week and the most striking thing I remember, apart from their serviceability, was the toolkit for the det ------A screwdriver and an open ended spanner! All nine aircraft flew twice a day for three days and all that was required was fuel,oil and oxygen.
Compare that to a det of four JPs for the same length of time and they came with a complete shift of linies armed with portable toolkits and a large box of spares.
I didn't work on them but handled quite a few through VASF at Kinloss. We had a detachment of nine, from Valley,(no groundcrew)for a week and the most striking thing I remember, apart from their serviceability, was the toolkit for the det ------A screwdriver and an open ended spanner! All nine aircraft flew twice a day for three days and all that was required was fuel,oil and oxygen.
Compare that to a det of four JPs for the same length of time and they came with a complete shift of linies armed with portable toolkits and a large box of spares.
The Gnat was a complex little beast, with a pitch system invented by the devil. Very short on range and very twitchy to fly in formation, although it had a sensational roll rate. It had classic swept wings handling, an excellent compass system and it flew like a knife through butter at low level. It also had the superb offset TACAN system. But we spent most our time practising emergency procedures and very little on applied flying.
The Hunter T7 was huge in comparison. Much easier to fly than the Gnat, but with a cockpit from the stone age. Once you'd mastered strapping in to the ancient bang seat, the Hunter F6 was even easier to fly, particularly in formation and had a nice big engine! The gyro gunsight was masterpiece of design, but the GGSR camera with those wretched cine mags was certainly not. Not much in the way of navigation systems in the TWU jets; most had Rebecca DME and UHF only radio. The Mk 9 had ADF (not that anyone ever used it except for listening to radio stations) and only a few had TACAN. But we rarely flew anything except day low level visual navigation, so who cared about navaids? The only real flaw was the fuel gauging system; also the fuel transfer could occasionally play up. But everyone forgave it that - the single seat Hunter was probably every pilot's favourite during training in those days.
I flew the Hawk in 1980 when it was relatively new. It had an abysmal compass system (later replaced with AHARS), the lateral stability was inadequate (later improved with a fin extension), so that it was less stable than the Hunter when weaponeering. The engine response was dull compared with the Gnat or Hunter (the Reds use a modified engine control system), but it was really, really easy to fly and had excellent range. We didn't need to do as much in-flight emergency training and gone were the horrors of manual reversion. But for some stupid reason it didn't have offset TACAN and I never understood why that was. The gunsight wasn't as good as that fitted to the Hunter, but at least it had a much better cine system! Roll rate wasn't a patch on the Gnat, but it had higher 'g' limits - until They realised that we were gobbling up fatigue. I understand that the CFS Hawk course included a +8 g demo, but that was probably binned after a few years?
The Hawk is undoubtedly a better trainer than either the Gnat or Hunter. But somehow it rather lacks the soul of its classic forebears...
The Hunter T7 was huge in comparison. Much easier to fly than the Gnat, but with a cockpit from the stone age. Once you'd mastered strapping in to the ancient bang seat, the Hunter F6 was even easier to fly, particularly in formation and had a nice big engine! The gyro gunsight was masterpiece of design, but the GGSR camera with those wretched cine mags was certainly not. Not much in the way of navigation systems in the TWU jets; most had Rebecca DME and UHF only radio. The Mk 9 had ADF (not that anyone ever used it except for listening to radio stations) and only a few had TACAN. But we rarely flew anything except day low level visual navigation, so who cared about navaids? The only real flaw was the fuel gauging system; also the fuel transfer could occasionally play up. But everyone forgave it that - the single seat Hunter was probably every pilot's favourite during training in those days.
I flew the Hawk in 1980 when it was relatively new. It had an abysmal compass system (later replaced with AHARS), the lateral stability was inadequate (later improved with a fin extension), so that it was less stable than the Hunter when weaponeering. The engine response was dull compared with the Gnat or Hunter (the Reds use a modified engine control system), but it was really, really easy to fly and had excellent range. We didn't need to do as much in-flight emergency training and gone were the horrors of manual reversion. But for some stupid reason it didn't have offset TACAN and I never understood why that was. The gunsight wasn't as good as that fitted to the Hunter, but at least it had a much better cine system! Roll rate wasn't a patch on the Gnat, but it had higher 'g' limits - until They realised that we were gobbling up fatigue. I understand that the CFS Hawk course included a +8 g demo, but that was probably binned after a few years?
The Hawk is undoubtedly a better trainer than either the Gnat or Hunter. But somehow it rather lacks the soul of its classic forebears...
Gnat v Hawk
I think someone's missing the point slightly here. The Gnat was an excellent trainer for the operational aircraft of the time. It had similar flying qualities and vices to the Lightning, F4, Jaguar and Buccaneer. When the Tornado arrived it was much easier to fly. The dangerous period was when the Hawk was training pilots for the older jets. It just did not have the same swept-wing characteristics and meant that the OCU instructors had to spend more time teaching them on the operational aircraft.
I agree gz. The straight wing characteristics of the Hawk were not ideal if you were going on to something like the Lightning. It was a great trainer when the compass was sorted but it still had deficiencies when considering performance.
Will try to find the song!
Will try to find the song!
Thread Starter
A few other observations on the historical chronolgy.
When the Hawk first flew 40 years ago, it then replaced the Gnat (and Hunter) and the in-service fighters were the Lightning and Phantom. Today, it is being replaced by the Hawk T Mk2 and the in-service fighter is the Typhoon. The significant advances over this 40 year period have been in weapon systems and avionics; the performance aspects are very similar. And the T1 is still an adequate trainer for students whose next aircrat is the Typhoon (as would have been the Gnat or Hunter).
40 years before the Hawk T1 entered service was 1936. The main trainer used then immediately prior to students converting to fighters was the Avro Tutor and the in-service fighters were the Hawker Fury, Hawker Demon and Gloster Gauntlet. I think that someone trained on the Avro Tutor (or the Harvard which replaced it) would have stuggled if they moved directly on to the Lightning!
In aviation a 40 year time period is not what it was.
When the Hawk first flew 40 years ago, it then replaced the Gnat (and Hunter) and the in-service fighters were the Lightning and Phantom. Today, it is being replaced by the Hawk T Mk2 and the in-service fighter is the Typhoon. The significant advances over this 40 year period have been in weapon systems and avionics; the performance aspects are very similar. And the T1 is still an adequate trainer for students whose next aircrat is the Typhoon (as would have been the Gnat or Hunter).
40 years before the Hawk T1 entered service was 1936. The main trainer used then immediately prior to students converting to fighters was the Avro Tutor and the in-service fighters were the Hawker Fury, Hawker Demon and Gloster Gauntlet. I think that someone trained on the Avro Tutor (or the Harvard which replaced it) would have stuggled if they moved directly on to the Lightning!
In aviation a 40 year time period is not what it was.
Last edited by LOMCEVAK; 22nd Aug 2014 at 13:57.
One of the Hawk's relatives is doing fine work these days on this side of the pond. There were some bugs to work out as our Navy introduced them (a good friend of mine was in the program office) and the nose wheel steering issues were still haunting our training wings well into the 2000's. That carping considered, it's been a good trainer for us and should be for quite a long time. The A to C mod was a sumbitch to get funded and programmed in a timely fashion, but it's an upgrade that is well worth the investment.
T-45 A/C Goshawk.
Trying for an OK 3 wire. (Wait, is that a picture of the hover mode for training Harrier pilots?
)
Flying about the desolate wastes of southern Texas in prep for flying over the desert wastes of the Middle East ...
Goshawk is expected to remain in service until 2035.
Based on how long it took us to sundown the T-2C, I'll offer a small wager that T-45C's will still be flying in 2040, if we still have jet pilots in the USN then and haven't replaced our airwings with XB-47's and such pilotless hardward.
If I lose that wager, and it's retired before 2035, anyone still alive may have tequila shots on me whenever we meet! That would still make Hawk over sixty years old and still in active service! Pretty good.
T-45 A/C Goshawk.
Trying for an OK 3 wire. (Wait, is that a picture of the hover mode for training Harrier pilots?
)Flying about the desolate wastes of southern Texas in prep for flying over the desert wastes of the Middle East ...
Goshawk is expected to remain in service until 2035.
Based on how long it took us to sundown the T-2C, I'll offer a small wager that T-45C's will still be flying in 2040, if we still have jet pilots in the USN then and haven't replaced our airwings with XB-47's and such pilotless hardward.
If I lose that wager, and it's retired before 2035, anyone still alive may have tequila shots on me whenever we meet!
That would still make Hawk over sixty years old and still in active service! Pretty good.
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Canada
Age: 69
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow! 40 years already. I remember reading about it just coming into service. From what I have read and heard, it is an excellent trainer, and I hope that its development continues.
(I have no personal attachment to the Hawk, except that we entered the service of Aunt Betty at around the same time, albeit in different capacities and on different continents.)
(I have no personal attachment to the Hawk, except that we entered the service of Aunt Betty at around the same time, albeit in different capacities and on different continents.)