Strange Question: Test Pilots' Career Paths?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Strange Question: Test Pilots' Career Paths?
Hopefully I'll be forgiven for asking a couple of slightly left field questions immediately after joining the forum.
Partly "to get it out of my system" I'm working on an extended short story which I might eventually self publish. I'm developing the background of some of the secondary characters and am trying to find the answers to a couple of questions:
Would a test pilot be posted to 41(R) Squadron ?
Would a graduate of one of the service test pilot school, say ETPS or Istres, ever return to a front line squadron as a flight or squadron commander or would they remain in flight test roles?
Thank you
Partly "to get it out of my system" I'm working on an extended short story which I might eventually self publish. I'm developing the background of some of the secondary characters and am trying to find the answers to a couple of questions:
Would a test pilot be posted to 41(R) Squadron ?
Would a graduate of one of the service test pilot school, say ETPS or Istres, ever return to a front line squadron as a flight or squadron commander or would they remain in flight test roles?
Thank you
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sussex By The Sea
Age: 79
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have certainly flown on operational squadrons with ex Boscombe Down and Bedford test pilots doing a normal squadron tour. This was a few years ago so things might have changed, but I suppose they have to go somewhere after their test pilot tours?
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: People's Republic
Age: 68
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I served with a chap in the 1980s who had just come back from Boscombe, having done the AR5 hot weather trials. Judging by the photos I think he'd probably had enough!
Cheers,
Vernon
Cheers,
Vernon
There are several different 'generic' types of test pilot: experimental, service and production, as examples.
I am assuming that you refer to the service TP who has graduated from ETPS or another appropriate test flying academy.
Service TPs - according to the plot - undertake test flying within the flight envelope, already opened by the experimental TPs. The tasks they perform are, therefore, very wide and can vary from fairly straight forward tasks eg to clear a piece of equipment for in-service use, through to the acceptance of a new aircraft type into the service and to lead on all the work that entails.
TPs are not employed exclusively on testing work and might reasonably expect to have a balanced career, which may include returning to test flying perhaps in a more senior capacity. They are, of course, an attractive target for industry and might be loaned to a manufacturer or leave the service and join a company. Of course their TP training, which develops - inter alia - their analytical skills and extends their flying experience, is useful in all sorts of roles.
Why not canvas this forum for a TP? On the promise of a decent dinner, I'm sure you would be able to gain a much better insight into the TP and their 'world' than I can offer in a few sentences.
Old Duffer
I am assuming that you refer to the service TP who has graduated from ETPS or another appropriate test flying academy.
Service TPs - according to the plot - undertake test flying within the flight envelope, already opened by the experimental TPs. The tasks they perform are, therefore, very wide and can vary from fairly straight forward tasks eg to clear a piece of equipment for in-service use, through to the acceptance of a new aircraft type into the service and to lead on all the work that entails.
TPs are not employed exclusively on testing work and might reasonably expect to have a balanced career, which may include returning to test flying perhaps in a more senior capacity. They are, of course, an attractive target for industry and might be loaned to a manufacturer or leave the service and join a company. Of course their TP training, which develops - inter alia - their analytical skills and extends their flying experience, is useful in all sorts of roles.
Why not canvas this forum for a TP? On the promise of a decent dinner, I'm sure you would be able to gain a much better insight into the TP and their 'world' than I can offer in a few sentences.
Old Duffer
41(R) Squadron is currently the Test and Evaluation Squadron for Tornado GR4 and Typhoon. Test pilots for those types are posted to 41(R) after finishing their test pilot school course. Also, some test pilots who have returned to front line squadrons after a tp tour may be posted back to undertake a further tp tour on 41.
Test pilots have certainly been posted back to front line units and become flight and squadron commanders as part of their career progression.
Hope this helps.
Test pilots have certainly been posted back to front line units and become flight and squadron commanders as part of their career progression.
Hope this helps.
Here we go!
In my experience there was certainly a considerable proportion of people who went off to ETPS because they didn't quite cut it on the front line on their first or second tour. These people in general disappeared into the TP world, never to be seen again. There were also a lot of people who were very competent and either stayed in the TP world or returned to the front line (with varying degrees of success!)
It was often extremely frustrating to have restrictions put upon you on day to day Sqn ops by people who didn't have the ability to cut it in the first place!
In my experience there was certainly a considerable proportion of people who went off to ETPS because they didn't quite cut it on the front line on their first or second tour. These people in general disappeared into the TP world, never to be seen again. There were also a lot of people who were very competent and either stayed in the TP world or returned to the front line (with varying degrees of success!)
It was often extremely frustrating to have restrictions put upon you on day to day Sqn ops by people who didn't have the ability to cut it in the first place!
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: The World
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
didn't quite cut it on the front line on their first or second tour.
The UK trains 9 test pilots and flight test engineers a year, including RN and Army officers. Following the course, most fast jet test pilots are posted to 41. A handful of test pilots do return to the front line - in all 3 services but the demand for second tourist test pilots (as sqn execs, teaching on ETPS or in a staff job at a PT or in the MAA) generally outweighs the pool of available people.
Help this helps.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hello 1,
I am intrigued to know to when you refer as "in 'the day'". Let's go back 30 years. There were 2 written exams and 3 interview boards. 5000 series were still scrutinised and Flight and Squadron Commanders still wrote recommendations. There were far more pilots applying for each slot than there is now and selection was far more competitive. Most of the fast jet tps then were already QWIs so hardly pilots who did not 'cut it' on the front line. Therefore, there is nothing to support your assertion in support of flaps 62's comment.
I am intrigued to know to when you refer as "in 'the day'". Let's go back 30 years. There were 2 written exams and 3 interview boards. 5000 series were still scrutinised and Flight and Squadron Commanders still wrote recommendations. There were far more pilots applying for each slot than there is now and selection was far more competitive. Most of the fast jet tps then were already QWIs so hardly pilots who did not 'cut it' on the front line. Therefore, there is nothing to support your assertion in support of flaps 62's comment.
Lom,
I did say that some very good guys went but in my 9 odd years on the front line, single seat of the half dozen or so guys that went TP from my fleet, none were QWI and I think 1 was QFI. It's also not necessarily a conclusion that they were not good pilots, they were I am sure rated at least Above Average (although in some of the cases I would be surprised!) but sometimes cutting it in a certain role is about rather more than that. Perhaps that's why no QWIs felt the need to go.
I did say that some very good guys went but in my 9 odd years on the front line, single seat of the half dozen or so guys that went TP from my fleet, none were QWI and I think 1 was QFI. It's also not necessarily a conclusion that they were not good pilots, they were I am sure rated at least Above Average (although in some of the cases I would be surprised!) but sometimes cutting it in a certain role is about rather more than that. Perhaps that's why no QWIs felt the need to go.
Please forgive a reminiscence:
I would expect current policy to follow the mood of personal management amongst other things.
My mid 1970s experience, as a weapons instructor, was during a period of change. Previously pre-qualifications for ETPS were frowned on, no IWI / QFI, because it was additional expenditure. Then with increasing focus on systems evaluation and testing, frontline qualifications were sought (three IWIs). Furthermore there were ‘career’ arguments with the new CTTO concept or trial elements in front-line squadrons which required experienced system-tps.
My selection was ‘muddled’ by an in-fight between command plans for future weapons instruction (and unknown to me, promotion), vs ETPS who had earmarked me for a next-generation systems project in a year’s time. ETTPS won, and my volunteering was rewarded by a life-expanding overseas tour.
Then the system fouled up, the project was late; –1yr in 1yr; no job at Boscombe so go to Bedford;– Ah Aero Flight, fast jet research, etc. No; so a fast jet IWI becomes a civil research Flt Cmdr (but with the bonus of a personal Sea Vixen – ex Admiral’s Barge).
RAE research provided an exceptional opportunity for tp development; there were many projects, civil money, a demand for free thought, and was sufficiently remote from the RAF that after a double tour the next move for another 20 yrs civilian testing was a no-brainer. During civilian times some of the most valuable experiences were in guesting as a line Capt or even as a Trainer, which without appropriate background the latter far more hazardous than testing!
Moral of the story: never base plans on the expectations of the military – policy changes in proportion to the poster’s tour length. If you volunteer, argue for the best option and make the most of it. Arm yourself with options, both civil and military qualifications which could be attractive to several career paths, and take a long term view, not excluding any possibility.
Don’t expect any plan to work – rules of war, plans do not survive contact with the enemy.
Enjoy every opportunity for test flying, learning, and thinking, particularly about oneself.
To answer the question – would a tp be posted to a front line squadron I hope so, but I doubt that it happens very often.
Flap, I would not agree with your views.
One misconception in aviation is that the more senior or more experienced pilots have the requisite abilities to test and assess systems – when asking an airline to send a range of pilots to evaluate a new display, including the below average – only the Chief pilot turns up.
Flying and systems testing is more about understanding yourself and ability to see other points of view. Pilots need to be able to understand the reasons behind occurrences and to communicate across the full design and operational spectrum (USNTS is a staff college for the Pentagon via operational command). Also, most important, not believing that you know better than others, which is often be found in squadron ‘expertise’.
I would expect current policy to follow the mood of personal management amongst other things.
My mid 1970s experience, as a weapons instructor, was during a period of change. Previously pre-qualifications for ETPS were frowned on, no IWI / QFI, because it was additional expenditure. Then with increasing focus on systems evaluation and testing, frontline qualifications were sought (three IWIs). Furthermore there were ‘career’ arguments with the new CTTO concept or trial elements in front-line squadrons which required experienced system-tps.
My selection was ‘muddled’ by an in-fight between command plans for future weapons instruction (and unknown to me, promotion), vs ETPS who had earmarked me for a next-generation systems project in a year’s time. ETTPS won, and my volunteering was rewarded by a life-expanding overseas tour.
Then the system fouled up, the project was late; –1yr in 1yr; no job at Boscombe so go to Bedford;– Ah Aero Flight, fast jet research, etc. No; so a fast jet IWI becomes a civil research Flt Cmdr (but with the bonus of a personal Sea Vixen – ex Admiral’s Barge).
RAE research provided an exceptional opportunity for tp development; there were many projects, civil money, a demand for free thought, and was sufficiently remote from the RAF that after a double tour the next move for another 20 yrs civilian testing was a no-brainer. During civilian times some of the most valuable experiences were in guesting as a line Capt or even as a Trainer, which without appropriate background the latter far more hazardous than testing!
Moral of the story: never base plans on the expectations of the military – policy changes in proportion to the poster’s tour length. If you volunteer, argue for the best option and make the most of it. Arm yourself with options, both civil and military qualifications which could be attractive to several career paths, and take a long term view, not excluding any possibility.
Don’t expect any plan to work – rules of war, plans do not survive contact with the enemy.
Enjoy every opportunity for test flying, learning, and thinking, particularly about oneself.
To answer the question – would a tp be posted to a front line squadron I hope so, but I doubt that it happens very often.
Flap, I would not agree with your views.
One misconception in aviation is that the more senior or more experienced pilots have the requisite abilities to test and assess systems – when asking an airline to send a range of pilots to evaluate a new display, including the below average – only the Chief pilot turns up.
Flying and systems testing is more about understanding yourself and ability to see other points of view. Pilots need to be able to understand the reasons behind occurrences and to communicate across the full design and operational spectrum (USNTS is a staff college for the Pentagon via operational command). Also, most important, not believing that you know better than others, which is often be found in squadron ‘expertise’.
Alf,
It sounds like you have had a marvellously entertaining and rewarding flying career.
My own views were perhaps unfair in that they were simply a 9 year snapshot on one particular fleet. I would not at all argue with your point that different roles demand different skill sets. It was simply my view that (in my opinion) some of the people I saw go to TP had "baled out" of a challenging environment, perhaps because they knew they were struggling and their subsequent handling advice to the Sqns was poor to say the least. I am sure other fleets and times had different experiences.
It sounds like you have had a marvellously entertaining and rewarding flying career.
My own views were perhaps unfair in that they were simply a 9 year snapshot on one particular fleet. I would not at all argue with your point that different roles demand different skill sets. It was simply my view that (in my opinion) some of the people I saw go to TP had "baled out" of a challenging environment, perhaps because they knew they were struggling and their subsequent handling advice to the Sqns was poor to say the least. I am sure other fleets and times had different experiences.
By the time the "product" gets to the FL it will have passed through the hands of both TPs and Evaluator Pilots (EPs). These EPs are the "traditional" OEU function, and provide the Operator input to the capability to ensure, as much as possible, that the FL gets the kit it needs - though sometimes not the kit it wants. On 41R these roles are fused with TPs, EPs and Trial Management Officers all on the same unit, and I believe it is the same for 206R. It's slightly different with RW; the tri-service RWTS is TP only, whilst the JHC OEU covers off RAF/AAC needs. The RN, interestingly, don't have a permanent OEU preferring to stand up, and then stand down, "W" suffixed Sqns for entry to service.
Re pre-cse quals, it seems the system is happier now to allow QFI/QHI and TI/WI to attend ETPS when it helps - eg CtoI on core types post course and to help the EPs with Course Development etc as part of a CTT.
As for post TP careers, well there remain a few posts at BDN for promoted TPs to backfill (CTP, DCTP, Wings etc) but most need to step away from the TP world to advance - Manning will counsel you prior to ETPS that you will be prejudicing your career by attending (time away from the FL, not a 'crunchy' Staff Job, tall poppy syndrome....). Jobs outside are not as plentiful as before, so more TPs will return to the FL in future; as usual the ebb and flow of Industry and programmes will dictate what happens post a TP tour. In the RW world many TPs simply join the pool of civ RW pilots in Offshore, PAS and HEMS when they leave.
Re pre-cse quals, it seems the system is happier now to allow QFI/QHI and TI/WI to attend ETPS when it helps - eg CtoI on core types post course and to help the EPs with Course Development etc as part of a CTT.
As for post TP careers, well there remain a few posts at BDN for promoted TPs to backfill (CTP, DCTP, Wings etc) but most need to step away from the TP world to advance - Manning will counsel you prior to ETPS that you will be prejudicing your career by attending (time away from the FL, not a 'crunchy' Staff Job, tall poppy syndrome....). Jobs outside are not as plentiful as before, so more TPs will return to the FL in future; as usual the ebb and flow of Industry and programmes will dictate what happens post a TP tour. In the RW world many TPs simply join the pool of civ RW pilots in Offshore, PAS and HEMS when they leave.
flap62,
Your second post has put your first one in context and there is nothing that you have said that I would disagree with. You have hit the nail on the head for this thread with ".. other fleets and times ..".
One aspect that must be considered is that everyone who applies to ETPS is a volunteer. For each available slot, the most suitable candidate is selected. He may not be the best from his fleet but if the best do not apply then we will not see them in the tp world. Everyone has different aspirations and suitabilities so the spectrum of tps is wide. There have been cases were ETPS wished to select very good applicants but 'manning' wanted those individuals for other appointments, and usually ETPS have lost. But, in the best interests of the service perhaps that was the correct decision.
Your second post has put your first one in context and there is nothing that you have said that I would disagree with. You have hit the nail on the head for this thread with ".. other fleets and times ..".
One aspect that must be considered is that everyone who applies to ETPS is a volunteer. For each available slot, the most suitable candidate is selected. He may not be the best from his fleet but if the best do not apply then we will not see them in the tp world. Everyone has different aspirations and suitabilities so the spectrum of tps is wide. There have been cases were ETPS wished to select very good applicants but 'manning' wanted those individuals for other appointments, and usually ETPS have lost. But, in the best interests of the service perhaps that was the correct decision.
Flap62
Excuse a Herc' nav from donkey's years ago having a say, but were you on the Jag' by any chance?
If so you may know my No1 son; QWI on 2nd tour, QWI instructor 3rd tour then TP. Top of the course at Istres despite initially struggling with the foreign language, then to Boscombe where he became Combat Ready again on the Jag' at Coltishall while on Fast-Jet Test.
Sensibly he has no time for Prune - full of whinging know-alls he says! I wouldn't give him your opinion of TPs if I were you - 6' 4" and mean with it
.
If so you may know my No1 son; QWI on 2nd tour, QWI instructor 3rd tour then TP. Top of the course at Istres despite initially struggling with the foreign language, then to Boscombe where he became Combat Ready again on the Jag' at Coltishall while on Fast-Jet Test.
Sensibly he has no time for Prune - full of whinging know-alls he says! I wouldn't give him your opinion of TPs if I were you - 6' 4" and mean with it
.
Hi Brian,
No, not Jag, Harrier.
You sound justifiably proud of your son but I would be happy to defend my views for the candidates that went during my time (honourable exceptions of course!)
Btw Brian, your son doesn't work in the Cambridge area does he?
No, not Jag, Harrier.
You sound justifiably proud of your son but I would be happy to defend my views for the candidates that went during my time (honourable exceptions of course!)
Btw Brian, your son doesn't work in the Cambridge area does he?
Last edited by Flap62; 23rd Aug 2014 at 20:57.
Flap62
Hi, Until recently yes - he was CTP with Marshalls for 3 years ( I hope you didn't 'cross' him ) and then got the job of his dreams in April,a TP with Airbus at Toulouse. The family are still near Bury S E until the boys finish school in a couple of years; he gets back a couple of times a month.
2 of his JP course went on to the Harrier, Bill Auckland ( RIP ) and JP - a Test Pilot too!
) and then got the job of his dreams in April,a TP with Airbus at Toulouse. The family are still near Bury S E until the boys finish school in a couple of years; he gets back a couple of times a month.2 of his JP course went on to the Harrier, Bill Auckland ( RIP ) and JP - a Test Pilot too!