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Old 9th Aug 2014, 23:37
  #41 (permalink)  
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If the US had not removed Saddam Hussein in the first place and supported the removal of Assad in neighbouring Syria then we would not be in this mess.
I am loath to have to agree with you on something Ronald, but you are correct. That said I'll repeat my usual mantra, there was nothing relatively wrong with Iraqi before the current twit took to the Whitehouse.

All it needed was time, and the surrounding country's be left alone.
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Old 9th Aug 2014, 23:44
  #42 (permalink)  
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Of course we are all missing the blinding obvious.

This is all in the 'name' of religion.

A mystical, magical God, up in the sky, promoting free will and not intervening.

Wasn't it in the 7th century when Mohammed heard a voice whilst walking in the desert, then a book written 32 years later and now, 1300+ years later, we still carry on none the wiser.

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Old 10th Aug 2014, 09:05
  #43 (permalink)  
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Sky News this morning showing footage of an RAF (C-130?) airdropping at night, to the fleeing populace.
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Old 10th Aug 2014, 09:23
  #44 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Wander00 View Post
Sykes-Picot, 1916. QED!
I have a letter, written to my grandfather in 1921, by a trader in Mosul.

He deplored the withdrawal of troops, mainly Indian Army, that had improved conditions since the overthrow of the Ottoman Empire and now the loss of stability and trade.

Air Policing may have been cheaper but they missed the stability of boots on the ground.

A strong colonial or dictatorial control brings stability but our modern self-satisfied democratic world supports the weak. The result is thousands or hundreds of thousands of deaths in the name of freedom. Under the status as quo the masses may live in poverty, but they live.
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Old 10th Aug 2014, 10:10
  #45 (permalink)  
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Gladrag, your right it could become a global problem. Sadly made worse in the first place by Western intervention.
If Saddam had stayed in power or the West had devised a viable post Saddam plan then none of this would be happening. Our intervention in Afghanistsn will end the same way in s few years and Libya hasn't exactly gone to plan! If we'd got our way in Syria what do you suppose would be happening there?
As well as actually creating environments where extremists can flourish our foreign policies in the middle east have also acted as a great recruitment and propaganda tool.
Anti Western feeling in the Middle East has arguably never been worse since we started meddling!
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Old 10th Aug 2014, 10:48
  #46 (permalink)  
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Dannat weighs in.

Lord Dannatt: We know the dangers of inaction - the West must intervene in Iraq - Telegraph

He must have had a good bottle of wine last night when he was reading this tripe down the phone to the SundayTorygraph staffer.

We were rocketed out of Basra, chased out in a full defeat, because our "boots on the ground" cant fight off and hold, peacefully and on our terms, plots and swathes at any one time, pieces of Iraq ground, without what the UK publically think are unacceptable casualties of our young lads. I was there and sat in the room in Basra, and heard it myself.

And it will be the same again if we step as much as one little toe back in the region (and the UK Military is in a far worse state now than it was then, even in 2008 and 2009).

The US mil managed to knock out or destroy some fighting vehicles last night and well done to the people who did that, but come on, we are talking about destroying a Viet-Cong style army here? They wont do armoured columns and supply bases etc, they are a flowing, walking dispersed army based on terror-entering villages and killing civilians. We wont win that fighting and strafing from the air, all the ISIS have to do is get back on foot and spread out. And carry on, and on. As a method it works brilliantly.
Only way to possibly stop that is get loads of our young lads on the ground fighting their young lads and that will never happen again. Because its unacceptable to our UK voting, caring public. And the USA too, now.

I don't think NATO led Air Power will defeat ISIS, without a massive, massive effort, which isn't there, and wont come in time anyway-its August..all the leaders are on holiday.
Face it, the Yazidis are looking doomed.
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Old 10th Aug 2014, 11:05
  #47 (permalink)  
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Well I remember well how we were all ridiculed, shot down in flames, for even suggesting that the first Iraqi incursion was a grave error, a grave mistake.

Reap what you sow and all that. Does everybody like what we have now?????

And please spare the, we had to do it, WMD and al that.

This is unwinable. Fact....

Odumbo can bomb all the grains of sand he likes. I doubt he will kill ten ISIS fighters.
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Old 10th Aug 2014, 13:43
  #48 (permalink)  
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Are you confused by what is going on in the Middle East?
Let me explain.
We support the Iraqi government in the fight against ISIS.
We donít like ISIS, but ISIS is supported by Saudi Arabia who we do like.
We donít like Assad in Syria. We support the fight against him, but ISIS is also fighting against him.
We donít like Iran, but Iran supports the Iraqi government in its fight against ISIS.
So some of our friends support our enemies, some enemies are now our friends,
and some of our enemies are fighting against our other enemies, who we want to lose,
but we donít want our enemies who are fighting our enemies to win.
If the people we want to defeat are defeated, they could be replaced by people we like even less.
And all this was started by us invading a country to drive out terrorists
who were not actually there until we went in to drive them out.
It's quite simple, really.
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Old 10th Aug 2014, 14:01
  #49 (permalink)  
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So to check understand - the enemy of my enemy and the friends of my enemy are my friends, except when they are my enemy...

Got it!
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Old 10th Aug 2014, 15:14
  #50 (permalink)  

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Sky News this morning showing footage of an RAF (C-130?) airdropping at night, to the fleeing populace.

Think Defence
has the full video, with the MoD attribution.
RAF Air Drop - Iraq - Think Defence

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Old 10th Aug 2014, 16:27
  #51 (permalink)  
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And all this was started by us invading a country to drive out terrorists
who were not actually there until we went in to drive them out.
And is being perpetuated by adherents to a "religion of peace" which appears to have two branches, each with various state sponsors, who will happily butcher each other till one wins.

I think the problem may actually lie there. Or more precisely with those who are busily funding them.
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Old 10th Aug 2014, 17:56
  #52 (permalink)  
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Rule, Britannia !

As an unrepentent old Imperialist, I can only say that, if you really want to influence a country, you have to take over its government - by force, if that's the only way. Then rule kindly, if you can; harshly, if you must - but always rule. (I'm aware that this opinion will entail my excommunication from the ranks of the Great, the Good and the Politically Correct).

Any other form of "intervention" will be (a) ineffective, (b) certainly unrewarding and (c) you will probably come out with a bloody nose. The last few hundred years should have taught us that.

If you must "intervene", then go in with a firm purpose and enough military force to impose your will (and some idea of how to get out if it all goes wrong would be helpful, too).

Always remember the Parable of the chap who got rid of one devil and ended up with seven other devils worse than the first. (Aren't we seeing this now ?)

(Oldest Inhabitant subsides muttering into his chair in the corner of the Bar. Another pint, Grandad ?... Thankee kindly, son ! )
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Old 10th Aug 2014, 19:17
  #53 (permalink)  
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I wouldn't worry overmuch about political correctness. I never experienced a great deal of that during my time in service, as Hangarshuffle says quite well, unless I have misunderstood him, the whole shebang is the result of weak indecisive political leadership, allowing themselves to be driven by their sad need for popularity. Like you, I doubt that "tinkering" from the air will do anything to affect the outcome on the ground, and eventually a serious move, on the ground will be required to eliminate the ISIS plague. It's just a matter of how many innocents the likes of Obama and Camoron are prepared to sacrifice for their summer hols and ineffectual leadership. I also wonder how long before their sympathisers in Britain begin to emulate their heroes in our own country, a la Lee Rigby, the great multicultural experiment has certainly put a Trojan horse in our midst.

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Old 10th Aug 2014, 19:57
  #54 (permalink)  
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Well said smudge. Also fully concur with your earlier reference to the Daleks. A much maligned race of inter-galactic decidedly non-pc rascals (always fancied myself in the role of Supreme Dalek but err, keep that to yourself)

So, yet more of our best and finest put in the line of fire whilst the vermin in the House of Treason pull the proverbial financial/logistical rug from under their feet.

How do those bastards sleep at night?
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Old 10th Aug 2014, 20:31
  #55 (permalink)  
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Please don't be Davros. Unless you think this works for you...

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Old 10th Aug 2014, 20:36
  #56 (permalink)  
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I can't help thinking that while we tie ourselves in knots fretting about multiculturalism and human rights those that would do us harm are, bit by bit dismantling our ability to resist them.
Time to wake up and put a name to the threat.

Posted from App for Android
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Old 10th Aug 2014, 20:44
  #57 (permalink)  
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Good point, Tash.
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Old 10th Aug 2014, 22:34
  #58 (permalink)  
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Oh no, Cm, Supreme Dalek, NOT that nefarious "Davros" character.

Seriously though. We most seriously HAVE a Fifth Column in our midst these days made all the more problematic by a student-level idiot "I'm young enough to know EVERYTHING" mentality that prevades the vermin in the corridors of
Oh Winston. What would YOU do...were you with us???
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Old 10th Aug 2014, 22:46
  #59 (permalink)  
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Er, didn't Churchill make some major blunders when he was young ?
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Old 10th Aug 2014, 23:13
  #60 (permalink)  
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Didn't we all?
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