IRAQ 3?

[Frostchamber]

It is partly symbolic, part of turning up as part of a wider effort, so in that sense the fact that we might add relatively little militarily in our own right is immaterial. As to Syria PA we do have legal cover if Iraq asks for help because it's being attacked from across the Syrian border.

[Tashengurt]

Diane Abbott MP. Oxygen thief.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[Hangarshuffle]

George Galloway in the HOC today.

By far the best speaker in the house, who has spoken the most sense all day, perhaps the only sense all day.
George Galloway angers MPs with comment about ?quiescent? Iraqis | Politics | The Guardian


They don’t concentrate as an army. They don’t live in bases.


It is not an army and it is certainly not an army that is going to be destroyed by aerial bombardment.


The territory they control is the size of Britain and yet there are only between 10,000 and 20,000 of them. Do the maths.


“Saudi Arabia has 700 war planes – get them to bomb. Turkey is a Nato member – get Turkey to bomb. The last people who should be returning to the scene of their former crimes are Britain, France and the US.”


Couldn't have put it better myself. GG is hated, just as Stokes was hated in WW2, but who was right in the end?


GG is worth reading in full. I wish there were 200 more like him in the Commons at times.

[Prangster]

Moral Support

Once committed we can only pray and offer our total support to those at the sharp end. Fly in safety folks and all return home

[Lima Juliet]

I think that Galloway is a traitor and the Tower is too good for him...

As for all the anti air power drivel from various corners. OK ground pounders, crack on then and we'll watch your body count rise on a daily basis. Assymetric warfare needs to be confronted with a similar assymetry - very low risk but big effect air power is just the job rather than a ground war where you have little idea who is badness until it is too late.

What we really need is a 'gloves off' air campaign which is qued by air/space bourne assets giving real time fused intel to the shooter - roll in AC130, A10, MQ-1 and MQ-9 in large numbers day and night with short sensor-to-target chain. There is no real need to use high-end warfighting assets over Iraq like Tornado when there is no credible air threat - save them for Ukraine vs Russia!

LJ

[Hangarshuffle]

Air Power, Ground Power it all failed before though.

Its all been done before Leon, we have had years of it and the bad guys such as they are simply keep being re-invented and re-presented to us again and again.
How is he a traitor? For speaking about the unspeakable? For daring to? He's no better or worse than half the other rascals in the place.
The present situation utterly sucks. The west seems to be in a constant confrontation with some of the people from the east in a never ending war-fighting cycle. We need new fresh thinking, attitudes, outlooks and strategies other than bombing more and more, every other bastard year.


I very much doubt GG has ever picked up anything more weapon-like than a stone, and yet he clearly hits the nail on the military head when he says this talk of attacking proven strategic targets is utter rubbish - they have no HQ or base or Quartermaster store, that's the point - they are a rag tag bunch of killers who only have to walk 500 yards apart from one another in the desert and scrub to then defeat another air campaign - cant you see this?
It is yet another crazy chapter in a book our descendant's will scorn or laugh at.

[MAINJAFAD]

Couldn't have put it better myself. GG is hated, just as Stokes was hated in WW2, but who was right in the end?

The problem is that Stokes was wrong!!! The cities were attacked because that was where the war industries were and a city was the smallest target that either bomber force could hit (USAAF had to bomb by radar half the time, plus their method of formation defence resulted in any attack destroying more that just the small area of the aiming point). The whole point of the bombing campaign against German was to keep them on the back foot and stop them from throwing everything at the Russians or at our forces. That's why half of the German Fighter Force was stuck in Germany by 1944, plus half of all of the 88mm Flak guns ever made. They could have made the Allied efforts on the ground all over the place a lot harder than it finally was and resulted in even more ground losses than were suffered in the Air by Bomber Command and 8th Air Force. Also attacking a city as a whole unit did more than just damage the factories. It also disrupted all of the services required for the Factories to operate, Power, Water, Gas, Transport, etc and this could damage production of war equipment just as much as bombing of the factories. Also the City attacks had an effect on the small workshops that were the sub contractors that produced the small specialist components for military equipment. The Battle of the Ruhr in 1943 resulted in the Germans having 1/3 of the steel they required for arms production that year. They also suffered a shortage of spares thanks to what they called the 'Sub components' Crises because of the city bombing. The thing is in Britain, the majority of the industry was in Cities. lots of small components were made in back street workshops, sometimes by Children after school using hand presses and foot drills (My late father spend most of his evenings in WWII helping his old man in that making aircraft engine parts in a shed at the back of the garden) and of course a lot of the military production in the UK, USA and the Soviet Union was done by women. When the Bombing of Germany started, it would have been suspected that the Germans were doing the same so killing women and children was killing the workforce. Of course due to Nazi doctrine, they used slave labour instead and didn't evacuate the childern as the UK did. Also If area bombing wasn't effective, why did Curtis Le May use it against the Japs? The simple reason was because it WORKS!!!!!

LJ

Galloway does actually talk a lot of sense and in a perfect world most of his ideas would be the ideal solution, the problem is however, it isn't a perfect world. The guy did help save the union, so the term traitor is a little bit harsh.

[orca]

I am personally very sad that it has taken us so long to commit to this fight and that modern political leadership is too scared to do so without a vote.

I consider this particular bunch, carrying out staggering acts of brutality under the completely false moniker of religion to be one of the greatest evils we shall face in our time. I am just sad that our combat air mass has shrunk to the point that a half squadron of GR4 is worthy of a commons vote and is considered an adequate contribution.

I am genuinely jealous of those that will get a chance to unleash the fury of all those of sound mind upon this despicable foe.

Go get 'em crabs. Give them hell and come home safely once the job's done.

[Hangarshuffle]

Lest we forget.

Sectors in the London Stock Exchange (LSE) | shareprices.com


Sector rise of 0.68% today in the Aerospace and Defence Sector, the 5th highest rise out of 40 odd in the total number of sectors. This is never a coincidence.
War can make many people very wealthy; possibly here we see the real reasoning behind our long term balls-up of showing any world wide humanity.
The richest, most affluent house I ever saw close up in England belonged to Thatcher's little secret favourite foreigner - sorry now a Briton (who just happened to be a major arms dealer, I later learnt).
It can be hard to grasp, that bit, when your young. People will slap you on the back and send you onwards with a shove into harms way, whilst they pick up the pink un for a quick scan for what's hot...was ever thus.

[Lima Juliet]

Galloway makes a lot of sense? Am I the only one not living on the moon?! The guy, in my opinion, is an absolute twonk who would sell his own grandmother to stay in the house of commons. When I was risking my neck over Iraq he was cozying up to Saddam in a self publicising trek to Baghdad whilst Saddam was offering to solid gold pistols to the pilot that could put me in a box 6 feet underground. A treacherous rogue is my own personal view of the man who will cozy up to anyone who will listen to his tosh.

You can't reason with these IS people and cozying up to them will not work either. As one guy at work was foolishly saying "if I was caught I would just convert to Islam"; I then explained that they would then pass you a black fishing vest with marzipan smelling lining and ask you to demonstrate your faith for the cause by spreading yourself across a large area!

I'm afraid that plinking them from afar as they are identified is the best option for standing up to them with minimal casualties to our side. They don't like it, Terry hated airpower in Afghanistan and we used it effectively in the Middle East in the 20s/30s. We also need to raise our PerSec at home to ensure we don't suffer more Rigby style incidents. I have no issue with profiling like many other countries do - it isn't that hard to work out where the threats within the UK are coming from for the IS cause!!!

LJ

[gr4techie]

Saudi Arabia has 700 war planes – get them to bomb. Turkey is a Nato member – get Turkey to bomb.

This is what he said. Interesting speech...

You Tube

[Alber Ratman]

Galloway is right.. France and the British made this mess after the fall of the Ottoman Empire almost 100 years ago... and didn't sort out what happened on the Arabian peninsular when the Hassamite lost control as the custodian of the holy places. We will not sort it by bombs alone. Again. We didn't sort it by boots on the ground last time either. 4 months of my life being put at risk as metal came over the fence and seeing one of my fellow SNCO's being killed.. For what?




Air policing didn't really ever stop them..

[Twon]

Unfortunately, I also find myself agreeing with Galloway. We may not like him or his previous views and actions but that doesn't automatically make him wrong on every issue. I agree with the Government that ISIL needs to be dealt with but token military action by the UK is not necessarily the best method. However, the decision has been made and we should support it and those who will be enacting it.

[downsizer]

I wonder how 9 and 31 feel about 4 months on ops 4 months off ops for the next few years then?

[Davef68]

Originally Posted by orca

I am personally very sad that it has taken us so long to commit to this fight and that modern political leadership is too scared to do so without a vote.

I was wondering - is there anything legally that requires a vote from the HoC before committing British forces to action - or is it just a political backstop by the PM?

[Heathrow Harry]

we've been bombing Iraq on and off for nearly a hundred years but we always seem to think it will solve the problems

[Heathrow Harry]

"I was wondering - is there anything legally that requires a vote from the HoC before committing British forces to action - or is it just a political backstop by the PM?"

without a written constitution he can do pretty much what he wants using the Crown prerogative - especially in times a danger

there is of course a move amongst the lawyers to say we have to have UN approval otherwise it might be a war crime

but in this day and age the PM wants to be able to say to them "well you damn well voted for it - it wasn't ALL my fault" when it goes pear-shaped .... as it always does

[2Planks]

I think the safest bet here is to buy shares in the Akkers Strip kebab houses - looks like the GR4s are in for the long haul - at least the guys get to live in accom with a roof and a bar nearby. Brandy Sour anyone.
God Speed to all those going sausage side.

[Danny42C]

The Selection and Maintenance of the Aim.

"We must do Something !"

"This is Something"

"Let's do it !"

[The B Word]

This is what happens when you interview a Cold War Warrior about COIN campaign tactics that he is clearly Cluedo about. He should stick to stories about switch pigz and re-attacks...

John Nichol, a former RAF navigator who was held captive in the Gulf War of 1991, said the difficulty with the mission was that IS does not have military infrastructure such as air fields or weapon dumps which can be destroyed.

"If there are no IS fighters on the ground and we're talking of a pick-up truck with some weaponry on the back - then there is nothing to attack.

"If IS know that the air assets are up there to hunt them down, they're not stupid, they're going to be hiding amongst the civilian population."

JN, what on earth do you think the Tornado GR Force have been doing in Afghanistan for the past 5 years or so!

The B Word