RNHF Sea Fury wheels up at Culdrose
Service personnel are no longer on a daily rate paid 7 days a week. We fell in line with UK and EU law quite some time ago and now receive an annual wage with part of our leave 'entitlement' established as a 'right'. Part of our pay comparator is against typical hours worked and, for the lower ranks, this is also compared against the minimum wage to ensure compliance.
I do remember the days when your statement held true, but we have moved on since then.
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JTO,
My statement still holds true (unless different for the RAF?). The way it is defined may have changed but I am not aware that Servicemen are paid an additional amount i.e. overtime. If my staff work more than their conditioned week, 40 hrs say, they get overtime. This overtime is double or triple at weekends. If my son does a weekend duty on his ship he doesn't get overtime or TOIL, nor does he when he deploys for 7 months.
My statement still holds true (unless different for the RAF?). The way it is defined may have changed but I am not aware that Servicemen are paid an additional amount i.e. overtime. If my staff work more than their conditioned week, 40 hrs say, they get overtime. This overtime is double or triple at weekends. If my son does a weekend duty on his ship he doesn't get overtime or TOIL, nor does he when he deploys for 7 months.
Pheasnt
The military have been doing TOIL (Time Off In Lieu) for years. If you work late into the evening (say 2030hrs) then you won't be expected to pitch in for 0730hrs met brief. Likewise if you work a Saturday or Sunday, you may well be told not to report for duty on a Monday. Yes, they could order you to work 7 days a week - but if this happened week in, week out, without a very good reason we would not have much of a military left!!!
My BBMF time was a secondary duty (and a bloody good one as well!); it was commented on in my annual report just like the Mess Sec, OIC Underwater Basket Weaving and the Wednesday afternoon Station Golf Team players. I was not required for duty when I flew - ie. I was not sat in the QRA shed or instructing some poor sod in a Tornado. The only full-time aircrew on the BBMF at that time was the OC and a FTRS OpsO - the rest of us all gave our time for free. I was not paid for flying on the BBMF, I was not posted onto their strength and I was being paid for my primary duty as a Tornado instructor. The ground crew were full time (some Regular some Reserve). I seem to remember that we cost ~10-20% of the cost of the Reds and flew about 200% more air displays (this may be different now).
Anyway, back to the thread. It was a great shame about the Sea Fury - even with hindsight it was really bad luck and the pilot did a good job of putting her down as gently as he could on unlocked gear. I absolutely refute the previous poster's comments about the professionalism of the RNHF. I hope that the Fury is back up before too long (I did meet the CAA surveying team and they thought she was repairable - happy days!).
LJ
The military have been doing TOIL (Time Off In Lieu) for years. If you work late into the evening (say 2030hrs) then you won't be expected to pitch in for 0730hrs met brief. Likewise if you work a Saturday or Sunday, you may well be told not to report for duty on a Monday. Yes, they could order you to work 7 days a week - but if this happened week in, week out, without a very good reason we would not have much of a military left!!!
My BBMF time was a secondary duty (and a bloody good one as well!); it was commented on in my annual report just like the Mess Sec, OIC Underwater Basket Weaving and the Wednesday afternoon Station Golf Team players. I was not required for duty when I flew - ie. I was not sat in the QRA shed or instructing some poor sod in a Tornado. The only full-time aircrew on the BBMF at that time was the OC and a FTRS OpsO - the rest of us all gave our time for free. I was not paid for flying on the BBMF, I was not posted onto their strength and I was being paid for my primary duty as a Tornado instructor. The ground crew were full time (some Regular some Reserve). I seem to remember that we cost ~10-20% of the cost of the Reds and flew about 200% more air displays (this may be different now).
Anyway, back to the thread. It was a great shame about the Sea Fury - even with hindsight it was really bad luck and the pilot did a good job of putting her down as gently as he could on unlocked gear. I absolutely refute the previous poster's comments about the professionalism of the RNHF. I hope that the Fury is back up before too long (I did meet the CAA surveying team and they thought she was repairable - happy days!
).LJ
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Quote: Lt Cdr Christopher Gotke was awarded the Air Force Cross for his “extraordinary and instinctive flying skills” landing a historic Sea Fury T20 plane during a display after its engine failed.
BZ
BZ
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I am not decrying the skilful handling of this incident but wonder whether the AFC is the appropriate reward. There appeared to be no option other than to carry out a forced landing due to time/height constraints. The Wiki. definition is :- "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying, though not in active operations against the enemy"
If not the AFC, then what?
If not the AFC, then what?
An observation from the un-initiated if I may and in no way am I questioning either pilot skill or the concept of an award:
Does the Airforce Cross cover all miltary aviation across all the services in the UK or is there an equivalent award in the Navy or Army for that matter?
BZ either way.
Does the Airforce Cross cover all miltary aviation across all the services in the UK or is there an equivalent award in the Navy or Army for that matter?
BZ either way.
Green Endorsement and a firm handshake? - JJ
A big BZ indeed, but hopefully no big hug from First Sea Lord....
Does the Airforce Cross cover all miltary aviation across all the services in the UK or is there an equivalent award in the Navy or Army for that matter? - SOB
Yes, although I once heard that there was a move in the 1970s to have the award renamed the Air Service Cross to cover the point you raise but, unsurprisingly, it did not come to much.
Jack
A big BZ indeed, but hopefully no big hug from First Sea Lord....
Does the Airforce Cross cover all miltary aviation across all the services in the UK or is there an equivalent award in the Navy or Army for that matter? - SOB
Yes, although I once heard that there was a move in the 1970s to have the award renamed the Air Service Cross to cover the point you raise but, unsurprisingly, it did not come to much.
Jack
@Madbob - at this weeks pre-display season symposium at Shrivenham, they said it wont fly this year.
Congratulations to the pilot concrened too - I heard his description of the accident at last years post-season symposium and it took a lot of skill to recover the a/c safely and with minimal damage.
Congratulations to the pilot concrened too - I heard his description of the accident at last years post-season symposium and it took a lot of skill to recover the a/c safely and with minimal damage.
JAJ,
Did he say why (apart from trying to save any damage) he chose to try to put the gear down at the last moment, rather than force-land wheels-up? Also, you can see the inboard gear doors are open during the approach.
OAP
Did he say why (apart from trying to save any damage) he chose to try to put the gear down at the last moment, rather than force-land wheels-up? Also, you can see the inboard gear doors are open during the approach.
OAP
OAP - sorry, I can't recall exactly what he said and wouldn't want to guess. I have the Bouchon Me109 engine failure description running round in my head atm and can't recall exactly the sequence of events.
JAJ,
Do you mean the one in Denmark 18 months or so ago? There was some very good handling there, didn't try the low energy turn onto the runway and took the wheels up deadstick into the field with relatively little damage.
OAP
Do you mean the one in Denmark 18 months or so ago? There was some very good handling there, didn't try the low energy turn onto the runway and took the wheels up deadstick into the field with relatively little damage.
OAP
Sea Fury Wheels up.
>>>>There appeared to be no option other than to carry out a forced landing due to time/height constraints. The Wiki. definition is :- "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying, though not in active operations against the enemy"<<<<
rvusa
If he'd decided just to save his skin when it was all going to worms, he probably had just enough time to bale out.
However, being a thoroughly briefed warbird pilot, he realised that there was a realistic possibility of saving a valuable aircraft that he obviously enjoyed, and was very competent, flying……..Take your choice from "valour" and "courage".
When the situation was falling into place and he recognised there was even a chance of getting back to CU, up came the gear and prop into Coarse, and set it up. Perhaps we could include "devotion to duty" now.
Closer in, he now realised there was even a possibility of pulling off a glide landing. Hence reselection of the gear when he was on short final.
The fact that, now, too late, the gear was only partially down made the latter part of the landing difficult. The enquiry will determine whether it was Low Hyd. P or, in fact, with the inner doors still down, an unexpected sequencing snag. Suffice it to say it had to be selected up, again, on landing, knowing that the Fury with one leg down is a killer.
Yes, I know, a lot of supposition but realistic.
But, yes, that definitely warrants an AFC in my book. A nearly textbook FLWOP from a
brave Officer. Congratulations, Chris.
rvusa
If he'd decided just to save his skin when it was all going to worms, he probably had just enough time to bale out.
However, being a thoroughly briefed warbird pilot, he realised that there was a realistic possibility of saving a valuable aircraft that he obviously enjoyed, and was very competent, flying……..Take your choice from "valour" and "courage".
When the situation was falling into place and he recognised there was even a chance of getting back to CU, up came the gear and prop into Coarse, and set it up. Perhaps we could include "devotion to duty" now.
Closer in, he now realised there was even a possibility of pulling off a glide landing. Hence reselection of the gear when he was on short final.
The fact that, now, too late, the gear was only partially down made the latter part of the landing difficult. The enquiry will determine whether it was Low Hyd. P or, in fact, with the inner doors still down, an unexpected sequencing snag. Suffice it to say it had to be selected up, again, on landing, knowing that the Fury with one leg down is a killer.
Yes, I know, a lot of supposition but realistic.
But, yes, that definitely warrants an AFC in my book. A nearly textbook FLWOP from a
brave Officer. Congratulations, Chris.
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I'm looking forward to congratulating Chris at this year's FNHT supporters' day!
He gave a fascinating and detailed account of the incident at last year's FNHT supporters' day. I'm sure there's a write-up somewhere but from what I remember he initially felt a vibration so initiated a precautionary landing but had no way of knowing that the aircraft was leaving smoke - though obvious to viewers on the ground. When the engine refused to provide power he considered baling out but took the option of retracting the gear to stretch the glide to the runway, popping the gear out at the last minute. He was only a couple of seconds away from the u/c locking down - so was unlucky - or very lucky, depending on your point of view!
He gave a fascinating and detailed account of the incident at last year's FNHT supporters' day. I'm sure there's a write-up somewhere but from what I remember he initially felt a vibration so initiated a precautionary landing but had no way of knowing that the aircraft was leaving smoke - though obvious to viewers on the ground. When the engine refused to provide power he considered baling out but took the option of retracting the gear to stretch the glide to the runway, popping the gear out at the last minute. He was only a couple of seconds away from the u/c locking down - so was unlucky - or very lucky, depending on your point of view!