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Learjet down over Germany after collision with Eurofighter

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Learjet down over Germany after collision with Eurofighter

Old 23rd Jun 2014, 17:10
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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One has to wonder whether it is normal to ask a civilian crew to take on such risks. Why wasn't the military operating the plane with a military crew?
Actually the learjet was operated by GFD, a daughter of Airbus Military and Defense. GFD does military training missions for the Deutsche Luftwaffe. In this mission they trained to intercept the learjet.

Sources said, the learjet hit one Eurofighter with its wing.

Last edited by ThoddyEADS; 23rd Jun 2014 at 17:10. Reason: Typo
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Old 23rd Jun 2014, 17:16
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I don't know for sure what function the civilian crew were performing in this instance, but civvie contractors have been doing target towing for years.

Are you presuming that civilians might not be as able at performing the task, or are you already thinking of reasons to apportion a likely cause of blame?
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Old 23rd Jun 2014, 17:20
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Most of them are ex-Mil. It's their job and profession to act as targets for the military. And they have quite a good safety record doing this. These Learjets are even modified to carry specific loads like jammers and such if needed for the mission.

It's not like Mil-ATC suddenly asks a civilian biz jet enroute for some favor or something.
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Old 23rd Jun 2014, 17:52
  #24 (permalink)  
txl
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Update

According to an agency report, the fighter jets were on a training mission to escort a non-communicating civilian airplane and "guide" it to land (other reports say "force"). During that, one of the Eurofighters supposedly made contact with the Learjet's fuselage and wing. Both fighter pilots are described as "very experienced". They were stationed in Nörvenich.

Also according to the agency report, the Learjet managed to stay in the air long enough to narrowly avoid a village. It crashed only 80 metres away from some houses.
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Old 23rd Jun 2014, 17:55
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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It's not like Mil-ATC suddenly asks a civilian biz jet enroute for some favor or something.
Not in this case, but occasionally they do. Had a few intercepts during airline operation for training purposes that way.
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Old 23rd Jun 2014, 20:09
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Like I said. It's not the way GFD works.
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Old 23rd Jun 2014, 20:56
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probably similar to what the Cobham / FRA DA20s do with the RAF?
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Old 24th Jun 2014, 06:27
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There are quite a few things that could go wrong with an interception, especially with more than two aircraft involved. The Lear getting in the wake from one fighter, performing an involuntary manoeuvre and hitting the other would be one scenario...
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Old 24th Jun 2014, 06:40
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JFZ90

'It is too early to speculate, but appears that Learjet was being used in conjunction with Typhoon for training - i.e. simulated unco-op target, perhaps involving VISIDENT etc. If this is the case it may merit mil discussion.'

In relation to what? Any amplification on the above in terms of military training is not open source.
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Old 24th Jun 2014, 08:04
  #30 (permalink)  

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FullWings

At last a sensible comment. Well said.
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Old 24th Jun 2014, 08:37
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One Eurofighter ripped of it's full bellytank, the Lear lost one engine and possibly one wing. Debris spread over a five kilometer radius.
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Old 24th Jun 2014, 13:13
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There had been rumour yesterday concerning a parachute reportedly spotted by some of the eyewitnesses that rose some hope. It seems, that the Typhoon lost it's dragchute during the incident.
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Old 24th Jun 2014, 14:35
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Are you implying the details ought to be hush hush, pursuit? If so, how very eighties!

On rumours and news it states the detail was a practice intercept and guide (one account said "force") it to land. Typhoon had it's belly tank ripped off, Learjet one engine and possibly a wing. Also brake chute from typhoon fell away leading for a while, to hope of survivor.

Comment from German Air Force Colonel that pilots "had performed remarkable feat in bringing aircraft home". After two fatalities, an odd line to be taking at this point, I suggest. Too early for allocating blame of course, but very much too soon to be handing out medals.
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Old 24th Jun 2014, 15:03
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Yes, you have a point in that the specific procedures may be operationally sensitive, but if it was e.g. some human factors related issue, seems it could be typical air clues lessons learnt material in the fullness of time.

Too early now of course.
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Old 24th Jun 2014, 16:42
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"Typical air clues lessons learnt material..?" After two fatalities -are you being serious?

Even more seriously, this was apparently training for intercepting a civilian aircraft - what if it was 400 deaths?
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Old 24th Jun 2014, 16:42
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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A German Air Force spokesman has confirmed that the Learjet was simulating a "renegade" civil airliner. The German media are reporting that the Saarland Prosecutor is considering whether the Typhoon pilot involved should face manslaughter / negligent homicide charges.

2014 Olsberg mid-air collision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://translate.google.com/translat...00%26bih%3D760

Learjet kollidiert mit "Eurofighter": Ermittlungen gegen Piloten - SPIEGEL ONLINE

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.bild.de/news/inland/eurofighter/eurofighter-rammt-learjet-ermittlungen-36515538.bild.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dermittlungen%2Bgegen%26biw%3D1600%26bih%3D760

Last edited by RAFEngO74to09; 24th Jun 2014 at 17:09.
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Old 24th Jun 2014, 17:04
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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lear jets have drag chutes too! this is the more likely explanation for that!
if you get hit by an euro-fighter losing a wing and an engine most likely the chute deploys too in this chaos.
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Old 24th Jun 2014, 18:16
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OK air clues might not be the right media for lessons learnt, but it seems likely that some lessons or e.g. reminders of the importance of procedures may surface.

Obviously the loss of life is tragic.
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Old 24th Jun 2014, 18:24
  #39 (permalink)  
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Out of interest Denti makes a very valid point.

An airline (charter) that I flew for had a number of intercepts from the French airforce. This while in full comms with correct controller. Objections were made and this eventually went to government ministerial level.

Only practising they said - but it did stop. I would presume they were practicing with fully 'live' armaments, though I could be wrong. Been a few practices gone wrong over the years.
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Old 24th Jun 2014, 22:59
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ThoddyEADS View Post
Actually the learjet was operated by GFD, a daughter of Airbus Military and Defense. GFD does military training missions for the Deutsche Luftwaffe. In this mission they trained to intercept the learjet.
Originally Posted by LEGAL TENDER View Post
probably similar to what the Cobham / FRA DA20s do with the RAF?
GFD stands for Gesellschaft für Flugzieldarstellung i.e. "Company for aerial target".
So yes, comparable to Cobham / FRA in UK.
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