Learjet down over Germany after collision with Eurofighter
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One has to wonder whether it is normal to ask a civilian crew to take on such risks. Why wasn't the military operating the plane with a military crew?
Sources said, the learjet hit one Eurofighter with its wing.
Last edited by ThoddyEADS; 23rd Jun 2014 at 17:10. Reason: Typo
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I don't know for sure what function the civilian crew were performing in this instance, but civvie contractors have been doing target towing for years.
Are you presuming that civilians might not be as able at performing the task, or are you already thinking of reasons to apportion a likely cause of blame?
Are you presuming that civilians might not be as able at performing the task, or are you already thinking of reasons to apportion a likely cause of blame?
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Most of them are ex-Mil. It's their job and profession to act as targets for the military. And they have quite a good safety record doing this. These Learjets are even modified to carry specific loads like jammers and such if needed for the mission.
It's not like Mil-ATC suddenly asks a civilian biz jet enroute for some favor or something.
It's not like Mil-ATC suddenly asks a civilian biz jet enroute for some favor or something.
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Update
According to an agency report, the fighter jets were on a training mission to escort a non-communicating civilian airplane and "guide" it to land (other reports say "force"). During that, one of the Eurofighters supposedly made contact with the Learjet's fuselage and wing. Both fighter pilots are described as "very experienced". They were stationed in Nörvenich.
Also according to the agency report, the Learjet managed to stay in the air long enough to narrowly avoid a village. It crashed only 80 metres away from some houses.
Also according to the agency report, the Learjet managed to stay in the air long enough to narrowly avoid a village. It crashed only 80 metres away from some houses.
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It's not like Mil-ATC suddenly asks a civilian biz jet enroute for some favor or something.
There are quite a few things that could go wrong with an interception, especially with more than two aircraft involved. The Lear getting in the wake from one fighter, performing an involuntary manoeuvre and hitting the other would be one scenario...
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JFZ90
'It is too early to speculate, but appears that Learjet was being used in conjunction with Typhoon for training - i.e. simulated unco-op target, perhaps involving VISIDENT etc. If this is the case it may merit mil discussion.'
In relation to what? Any amplification on the above in terms of military training is not open source.
In relation to what? Any amplification on the above in terms of military training is not open source.
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There had been rumour yesterday concerning a parachute reportedly spotted by some of the eyewitnesses that rose some hope. It seems, that the Typhoon lost it's dragchute during the incident.
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Are you implying the details ought to be hush hush, pursuit? If so, how very eighties!
On rumours and news it states the detail was a practice intercept and guide (one account said "force") it to land. Typhoon had it's belly tank ripped off, Learjet one engine and possibly a wing. Also brake chute from typhoon fell away leading for a while, to hope of survivor.
Comment from German Air Force Colonel that pilots "had performed remarkable feat in bringing aircraft home". After two fatalities, an odd line to be taking at this point, I suggest. Too early for allocating blame of course, but very much too soon to be handing out medals.
On rumours and news it states the detail was a practice intercept and guide (one account said "force") it to land. Typhoon had it's belly tank ripped off, Learjet one engine and possibly a wing. Also brake chute from typhoon fell away leading for a while, to hope of survivor.
Comment from German Air Force Colonel that pilots "had performed remarkable feat in bringing aircraft home". After two fatalities, an odd line to be taking at this point, I suggest. Too early for allocating blame of course, but very much too soon to be handing out medals.
Yes, you have a point in that the specific procedures may be operationally sensitive, but if it was e.g. some human factors related issue, seems it could be typical air clues lessons learnt material in the fullness of time.
Too early now of course.
Too early now of course.
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"Typical air clues lessons learnt material..?" After two fatalities -are you being serious?
Even more seriously, this was apparently training for intercepting a civilian aircraft - what if it was 400 deaths?
Even more seriously, this was apparently training for intercepting a civilian aircraft - what if it was 400 deaths?
A German Air Force spokesman has confirmed that the Learjet was simulating a "renegade" civil airliner. The German media are reporting that the Saarland Prosecutor is considering whether the Typhoon pilot involved should face manslaughter / negligent homicide charges.
2014 Olsberg mid-air collision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://translate.google.com/translat...00%26bih%3D760
Learjet kollidiert mit "Eurofighter": Ermittlungen gegen Piloten - SPIEGEL ONLINE
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.bild.de/news/inland/eurofighter/eurofighter-rammt-learjet-ermittlungen-36515538.bild.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dermittlungen%2Bgegen%26biw%3D1600%26bih%3D760
2014 Olsberg mid-air collision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://translate.google.com/translat...00%26bih%3D760
Learjet kollidiert mit "Eurofighter": Ermittlungen gegen Piloten - SPIEGEL ONLINE
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.bild.de/news/inland/eurofighter/eurofighter-rammt-learjet-ermittlungen-36515538.bild.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dermittlungen%2Bgegen%26biw%3D1600%26bih%3D760
Last edited by RAFEngO74to09; 24th Jun 2014 at 17:09.
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lear jets have drag chutes too! this is the more likely explanation for that!
if you get hit by an euro-fighter losing a wing and an engine most likely the chute deploys too in this chaos.
if you get hit by an euro-fighter losing a wing and an engine most likely the chute deploys too in this chaos.
OK air clues might not be the right media for lessons learnt, but it seems likely that some lessons or e.g. reminders of the importance of procedures may surface.
Obviously the loss of life is tragic.
Obviously the loss of life is tragic.
Mistrust in Management
Out of interest Denti makes a very valid point.
An airline (charter) that I flew for had a number of intercepts from the French airforce. This while in full comms with correct controller. Objections were made and this eventually went to government ministerial level.
Only practising they said - but it did stop. I would presume they were practicing with fully 'live' armaments, though I could be wrong. Been a few practices gone wrong over the years.
An airline (charter) that I flew for had a number of intercepts from the French airforce. This while in full comms with correct controller. Objections were made and this eventually went to government ministerial level.
Only practising they said - but it did stop. I would presume they were practicing with fully 'live' armaments, though I could be wrong. Been a few practices gone wrong over the years.
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So yes, comparable to Cobham / FRA in UK.