B-1B bomber "Blue on Blue" in Afghanistan 10jun2014...
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B-1B bomber "Blue on Blue" in Afghanistan 10jun2014...
The bomb doesn't know
If you're friend or foe
Danger Close and RoE
A thin shield made for thee.
Too thin it seems, in this case.
RIP, to our brothers in arms.
This scenario is every air-to-ground mission's worst nightmare.
If you're friend or foe
Danger Close and RoE
A thin shield made for thee.
Too thin it seems, in this case.
RIP, to our brothers in arms.
This scenario is every air-to-ground mission's worst nightmare.
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Everything looks like a Nail when all you have is a Hammer!
Anyone care to argue the benefit of having A-10's giving Close Air Support rather than a Strategic Bomber?
The difference between that awesome Cannon raining HE rounds on the Attackers as compared to using GPS guided Bombs cannot be disputed.
If I was on the ground needing help I would want either an A-10 or AH-64 providing the help.
Perhaps we need to reassess the Mission, ROE's, and decide that this just isn't working and it is time to pack our Bags and come home!
Anyone care to argue the benefit of having A-10's giving Close Air Support rather than a Strategic Bomber?
The difference between that awesome Cannon raining HE rounds on the Attackers as compared to using GPS guided Bombs cannot be disputed.
If I was on the ground needing help I would want either an A-10 or AH-64 providing the help.
Perhaps we need to reassess the Mission, ROE's, and decide that this just isn't working and it is time to pack our Bags and come home!
This is just horrible, plain and simple. I pray a proper investigation gets to the bottom and the root cause, be it systemic or human is identified.
Like it or not the Bone is a CAS aircraft, having filled this role extensively during the GWOT. This tragedy is just that and isn't a judgement on the aircraft in that role.
If fratricide is the determinant of effectiveness in role, then the A-10 shouldn't be flying CAS either.
Take the opportunity if possible to attend a combined arm exercise and watch the Bone at work and you'll like what you see. It's not a CAS platform in the same way the A-10 conducts its business, but it has its place.
The early reports I've read is that this was a mis ID and not an improperly delivered munition.
Like it or not the Bone is a CAS aircraft, having filled this role extensively during the GWOT. This tragedy is just that and isn't a judgement on the aircraft in that role.
If fratricide is the determinant of effectiveness in role, then the A-10 shouldn't be flying CAS either.
Take the opportunity if possible to attend a combined arm exercise and watch the Bone at work and you'll like what you see. It's not a CAS platform in the same way the A-10 conducts its business, but it has its place.
The early reports I've read is that this was a mis ID and not an improperly delivered munition.
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The wrong aircraft?
Firstly my condolences to the family and friends of those who died in this incident.
CGB
The use of a strategic asset with zero in-country basing requirement during a period of reducing footprint seems sensible to me.
West Coast
I agree.
As we all know “CAS is action by fixed- and rotary wing aircraft against hostile targets, which requires detailed integration of each air mission with fire and movement of friendly forces for fratricide avoidance and targeting guidance” (AP 3002). CAS is a mission type; it is not a design attribute. If you want to get Orwellian, all attack aircraft have CAS capability but some are more CAS capable than others.
CGB
The use of a strategic asset with zero in-country basing requirement during a period of reducing footprint seems sensible to me.
West Coast
I agree.
As we all know “CAS is action by fixed- and rotary wing aircraft against hostile targets, which requires detailed integration of each air mission with fire and movement of friendly forces for fratricide avoidance and targeting guidance” (AP 3002). CAS is a mission type; it is not a design attribute. If you want to get Orwellian, all attack aircraft have CAS capability but some are more CAS capable than others.
Agree with West Coast. This trajedy is not an indictment on the war, the B-1, or the the crews in the air and on the ground. Things can and will go wrong, and we learn.
CAS has evolved and has come a long way from "drop 50 meters west of my smoke".
Agree that slower movers are sometimes best for troops in contact support, but we do not have those aircraft in direct support of every ground operation, or they can not get there in time for urgent retasking. The B-1 is not just a strategic platform, it has demonstrated it's ability to work with troops on the ground. Is it the best for every scenario? No. The B-1 also has tremendous time on station capability that other aircraft do not have.
CAS has evolved and has come a long way from "drop 50 meters west of my smoke".
Agree that slower movers are sometimes best for troops in contact support, but we do not have those aircraft in direct support of every ground operation, or they can not get there in time for urgent retasking. The B-1 is not just a strategic platform, it has demonstrated it's ability to work with troops on the ground. Is it the best for every scenario? No. The B-1 also has tremendous time on station capability that other aircraft do not have.
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I suppose we can argue about whether the B-1 is a CAS aircraft and that our current capability of dropping precision munitions is adequate, and that our ROE's are not un-necessarily endangering our Troops, but I would submit that we are continuing to fight a War with no real concern for the reality of the situation.
We are drawing down assets while we still have Troops in contact at very close quarters with a determined enemy which is growing stronger as we are are growing more and more unable to control the Battle Space.
It would seem we would maintain adequate CAS assets in country to grant sufficient assistance to the ground troops. That means helicopters, A-10's, and other Aircraft and Weapons Systems including Artillery so that all of our Ground forces can bring the maximum amount of Firepower onto the Enemy in a very timely manner should they elect to engage our Troops.
How much you want to bet there was no Artillery cover for these Troops?
How much you want to bet there were no Apaches able to promptly assist?
You reckon the investigation will address those kinds of issues or will they just look to see what immediate cause there was for this sad tragedy?
All we are doing now is "Running out the Clock"....and losing good men and women in the process.
We are drawing down assets while we still have Troops in contact at very close quarters with a determined enemy which is growing stronger as we are are growing more and more unable to control the Battle Space.
It would seem we would maintain adequate CAS assets in country to grant sufficient assistance to the ground troops. That means helicopters, A-10's, and other Aircraft and Weapons Systems including Artillery so that all of our Ground forces can bring the maximum amount of Firepower onto the Enemy in a very timely manner should they elect to engage our Troops.
How much you want to bet there was no Artillery cover for these Troops?
How much you want to bet there were no Apaches able to promptly assist?
You reckon the investigation will address those kinds of issues or will they just look to see what immediate cause there was for this sad tragedy?
All we are doing now is "Running out the Clock"....and losing good men and women in the process.
All we are doing now is "Running out the Clock"....and losing good men and women in the process.
Given the rate at which Iraq is currently collapsing, anyone think the current Afghan regime will even manage 2 1/2 years?
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JustT, sorry for the confusion but my slightly cryptic point was that we appear to be on the way home without having achieved the desired end state, just like Iraq. The West seems to be making a habit of kicking some sand about, spending a few dollars, bringing some bodies home and then losing the political appetite to finish the job (whatever that job was).
One wonders where the interventionist merry-go-round will take us next?
One wonders where the interventionist merry-go-round will take us next?
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Oops ! Sorry !
The mortar smoke-bomb (smoke colour to taste) on target worked fine in Burma in '43/'44. Don't think there was ever a blue-on-blue with Vultee Vengeance operations.
Very occasionally a squaddie would get up too close to the action in his eagerness to start the mopping-up when we'd finished, and there was a "wild bomb", but that was just hard luck. RIP all.
D.
Very occasionally a squaddie would get up too close to the action in his eagerness to start the mopping-up when we'd finished, and there was a "wild bomb", but that was just hard luck.
RIP all.D.
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Re the B1B as a CAS platform
An aircraft with the enough fuel to fly from one side of Afghanistan to the other at mach1+ if needed in an emergency is pretty useful.
as is one with enough fuel to hang around all day
and plenty of weaponry on board if required
it also has the same targeting pod as carried by the A10 and many other fast jet types
An aircraft with the enough fuel to fly from one side of Afghanistan to the other at mach1+ if needed in an emergency is pretty useful.
as is one with enough fuel to hang around all day
and plenty of weaponry on board if required
it also has the same targeting pod as carried by the A10 and many other fast jet types
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Knowitall,
All your points are valid, however it's doubtful the B1's operating height was the same as the A-10's or RW assets.
Lot more confidence on the ground when you can see your CAS and advise your position (and the enemies) relative to the CAS.
Could still have been a rogue however.
All your points are valid, however it's doubtful the B1's operating height was the same as the A-10's or RW assets.
Lot more confidence on the ground when you can see your CAS and advise your position (and the enemies) relative to the CAS.
Could still have been a rogue however.
Not every CAS asset can be an A-10 Bob.
I for one am not trying to hold the Bone up as equal to the hog, specialist as compared to a generalist.
That said, when the hog is headed back to the tanker or is out of ordanance and doing show of force passes only, the jack of all trades B-1 is greatly appreciated.
I for one am not trying to hold the Bone up as equal to the hog, specialist as compared to a generalist.
That said, when the hog is headed back to the tanker or is out of ordanance and doing show of force passes only, the jack of all trades B-1 is greatly appreciated.