Unsuitable diversions
Thread Starter
Unsuitable diversions
I was slaving away at the bench at Finningley and distinctly heard my junior [forecaster trained] recommend Holme on Spalding Moor to OC Flying [as was] as a diversion for his Dominie 6-ship, a bit bothered in fog and low-stratus.
"Its nice and clear, sticking up out of the crud!"
I expect aircrew have all been victims of inappropriate recommendations. Please tell.
"Its nice and clear, sticking up out of the crud!"
I expect aircrew have all been victims of inappropriate recommendations. Please tell.
Odiham, a few years ago, regularly used to book the same old diversions, regardless of colour state. Not much use having a div that's showing 'red'. The stn ops room FOA was the one given the job, without a helping hand, and the duty flt cdr (or equivalent) was never consulted.
Last edited by MG; 29th May 2014 at 20:31.
Thread Starter
Always chose our own diversion on Hercs, thus the problem of unsuitable recommendation never occurred.
One trusts it was based on TAFs, and some nations' TAFs were, shall we say, formulaic rather than logical. As indeed were their observations.
Quite often the Flying Training bases tasked on recommendation, regarding both en-route wind and weather and diversion prospects. the nerve-wracking ones included sending several aircraft towards Gib., with not many friendlies in prospect, and the possibility of murk rolling into the coastal divs. Fortunately in my day we had primitive Satpics of Biscay and the Peninsular coast.
One trusts it was based on TAFs, and some nations' TAFs were, shall we say, formulaic rather than logical. As indeed were their observations.
Quite often the Flying Training bases tasked on recommendation, regarding both en-route wind and weather and diversion prospects. the nerve-wracking ones included sending several aircraft towards Gib., with not many friendlies in prospect, and the possibility of murk rolling into the coastal divs. Fortunately in my day we had primitive Satpics of Biscay and the Peninsular coast.
Remember taxying out for take off at Manston with every expectation of getting airborne, then watching as the lights disappeared one by one till it was a "nose in front of your face" job. Recall we had to ask for a Land Rover to guide us back to dispersal.
Good luck to anyone who buys one of the houses they plan on building there!
Good luck to anyone who buys one of the houses they plan on building there!
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As indeed were their observations.
"insha'Allah, it will be cloudy"
Fortunately we were trained to interpret a met chart (no idea if pointy pilots and navs are? Or, perhaps, rather whether they ever put it into practice). No need for a dish-dash-dressed metmen. We would NEVER take a recommendation at face value; can't understand a (qualified) crew doing so. Of course, we used 'station divs' when they looked ok, but it was always checked before WE decided to accept them.
Never trusted a Spam filtered terminal forecast either. One time the (quoted) f'cast for Waddo was cavok. A quick check on t'internet revealed that prior to our expected arrival time of 09:00 the viz was ~100m, sky obscured. Filed for Prestwick instead of Waddo, quick splash 'n dash and into Waddo an hour after the clag burnt off.
NO idea what goes on in flight training re. met these days (couldn't care less frankly), but 25 years ago we learnt to stand on our own two feet.
Last edited by Willard Whyte; 29th May 2014 at 22:10.
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Formation of US Navy Skywarrior aircraft returning to their temporary base in Australia. (They were a 'senior' fleet of nuke bombers)'
'Kookaburra Tower, Whale formation, say the airfield weather please'
Tower: it's nice.
Whale formation, you'll need to do a bit better than that....I mean how nice is it?
Tower: it's quite nice.
Another day...
Tower: It's cloudy
Pity's sake! Say the airfield weather properly!
Tower: ok, it's quite cloudy.
'Kookaburra Tower, Whale formation, say the airfield weather please'
Tower: it's nice.
Whale formation, you'll need to do a bit better than that....I mean how nice is it?
Tower: it's quite nice.
Another day...
Tower: It's cloudy
Pity's sake! Say the airfield weather properly!
Tower: ok, it's quite cloudy.
'MG wrote: Odiham, a few years ago, regularly used to book the same old diversions, regardless of colour state. Not much use having a div that's showing 'red'. The stn ops room FOA was the one given the job, without a helping hand, and the duty flt cdr (or equivalent) was never consulted'
The lack of training given to the FOA is not their fault. It's the fault of the hiearchy. Easy to blame the lowest rung on the ladder when the problem lays much further up. Sounds like a complete lack of internal processes to me....
The lack of training given to the FOA is not their fault. It's the fault of the hiearchy. Easy to blame the lowest rung on the ladder when the problem lays much further up. Sounds like a complete lack of internal processes to me....
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Where does the phase "Harry Clampers" regarding weather come from?
I used to hear it a lot when "I were a lad" and I suspect it was a Second World War or National Service RAF thing.
I used to hear it a lot when "I were a lad" and I suspect it was a Second World War or National Service RAF thing.
Plans,
I don't think MG was playing the man, more the pervading attitude in the HQ at the time. Whilst Sqn DA at the same secret Hampshire airbase I called Stn Ops to ask why they'd merely rebooked the previous day's wx div despite the fact it didn't have a PAR, the ILS was u/s and the Non-precision mimima (NDB I think...) was actually higher than the TAF at Homeplate.......
I don't think MG was playing the man, more the pervading attitude in the HQ at the time. Whilst Sqn DA at the same secret Hampshire airbase I called Stn Ops to ask why they'd merely rebooked the previous day's wx div despite the fact it didn't have a PAR, the ILS was u/s and the Non-precision mimima (NDB I think...) was actually higher than the TAF at Homeplate.......
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Very many years ago, an AEW Shackleton Squadron was on a 2 week deployment to St Mawgan for a JMC Exercise. QRA was being covered back at Lossie with a couple of aircraft and a couple of crews while the rest of the Sqn provided 24 hour coverage for the NATO fleet in the SW Approaches.
Our crew had just finished its 8 hours on station and was returning to St Mawgan when we got a radio message... QRA had launched and the spare was U/S. CAOC needed another Shackleton back at Lossie to cover a gap (The Bears were quite active because of the JMC). We were ordered to return direct to Lossie using Leuchars as the div although the weather was not brilliant for both. The Nav and Eng got together and calculated the fuel... we did not have enough to get back to Lossie with enough for the Leuchars div. We reported this to our ops. Back came a message.... use Leuchars as the destination with Lossie as the Div and then divert to Lossiemouth with low fuel. We questioned the order. Press on came the reply.
We were fortunate enough to have a strong minded captain who told us to head north until we were near minima for St Mawgan and we would check the fuel again. Strong northerly winds slowed our progress north and we dutifully went back to Mawgan, and a not happy flight commander, on our minima with div fuel intact. As it was, we would not have had the fuel to make Lossie even without the div fuel so honour was maintained at both ends, but it certainly led the crews to look at instructions from base with caution!
Our crew had just finished its 8 hours on station and was returning to St Mawgan when we got a radio message... QRA had launched and the spare was U/S. CAOC needed another Shackleton back at Lossie to cover a gap (The Bears were quite active because of the JMC). We were ordered to return direct to Lossie using Leuchars as the div although the weather was not brilliant for both. The Nav and Eng got together and calculated the fuel... we did not have enough to get back to Lossie with enough for the Leuchars div. We reported this to our ops. Back came a message.... use Leuchars as the destination with Lossie as the Div and then divert to Lossiemouth with low fuel. We questioned the order. Press on came the reply.
We were fortunate enough to have a strong minded captain who told us to head north until we were near minima for St Mawgan and we would check the fuel again. Strong northerly winds slowed our progress north and we dutifully went back to Mawgan, and a not happy flight commander, on our minima with div fuel intact. As it was, we would not have had the fuel to make Lossie even without the div fuel so honour was maintained at both ends, but it certainly led the crews to look at instructions from base with caution!
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I had been a met assistant 1947-9 at London Airport and was used to forecasters who stuck their necks out with very little current information, particularly for trans-atlantic flights. 1991 and I was "freighting" on a Brussels-Porto-Lisbon schedule. Portuguese comms operators had been on strike for several days so no TAFS or METARS. I phoned the Brussels forecaster and asked what to expect for my 0430 arrival at Porto. He said "no can do" as he had no information and could only forecast if he had TAFS, i.e. using somebody else's forecast. Remembering my previous experience and reading of M.O.630 (A.P.3340) Handbook of Aviation Meteorology I suggested that any met man worth his salt should be able to give a reasoned estimate. All he would say, in a huff, was "probably like last night". Fortunately we had Madrid fuel and when we arrived sea fog was rising over the cliffs making the runway approach interesting.
I'd be interested to know langleybaston's thoughts.
I'd be interested to know langleybaston's thoughts.
use Leuchars as the destination with Lossie as the Div and then divert to Lossiemouth with low fuel
And another!
Early 70's, late one wintery Sunday night and a l-o-n-g way up North on AEW Shack watching the Russians do something interesting. At the appropriate fuel level we start our weary way back to Lossie (due south), updating our ETA accordingly with Buchan Radar on HF. Quite surprised to get back an instant grade 1 diversion (pretty well mandatory) - to Wattisham! Now actual and TAF for Wattisham are OK, but fuel is a 'bit' tight - in fact I initially decline their kind invitation and state we will return to Lossie. At which point the senior controller comes on and says it is straight from AOC and the Sqn Cdr that we are to try. So we proceed down the coast past Lossie, past Leuchars and past Leeming (the only other open mil airfields after midnight) all the time being assured the weather at Wattisham is wonderfull, and by minimising fuel burn keeping enough to just make it but with nothing spare. All is sweetness and light 'til just about abeam the Wash, when we go into cloud (at lowish level) which also appears to have snow. We are now committed to Wattisham; there are no other airfields open anywhere closer. First call to London radar elicits a certain amount of concern - 'we're on route to Wattisham' says I, 'oh no you're not' says London, 'they're Red with heavy snow and have had to close!' Once we got through to them it was there or nowhere certain alarm bells begin to ring and we are grudgingly vectored for a PAR, where the controller kindly informs us 'it's quite bad down here you know'. I tell him to keep talking down to touchdown point which luckily he does. At that point I closed the throttles, saw a light go under the wing and prayed I was on the runway. I was. The follow me truck came to find us, couldn't, went off the side of the runway and got stuck, so they sent out a snowplough with a crew bus behind, and we left the aircraft there, with almost no fuel, collecting it the following day when more of the runway was cleared and they could get a bowser to it.
So, why the diversion? The AOC wanted to personally see the information we had gathered. He couldn't get through because of the snow!
Why the snow? The met man offered profuse apologies (thank you!) - they had seen a developing low over the North Sea but didn't think it would affect them, and even if it did it would be long after anyone would be airborne!
Early 70's, late one wintery Sunday night and a l-o-n-g way up North on AEW Shack watching the Russians do something interesting. At the appropriate fuel level we start our weary way back to Lossie (due south), updating our ETA accordingly with Buchan Radar on HF. Quite surprised to get back an instant grade 1 diversion (pretty well mandatory) - to Wattisham! Now actual and TAF for Wattisham are OK, but fuel is a 'bit' tight - in fact I initially decline their kind invitation and state we will return to Lossie. At which point the senior controller comes on and says it is straight from AOC and the Sqn Cdr that we are to try. So we proceed down the coast past Lossie, past Leuchars and past Leeming (the only other open mil airfields after midnight) all the time being assured the weather at Wattisham is wonderfull, and by minimising fuel burn keeping enough to just make it but with nothing spare. All is sweetness and light 'til just about abeam the Wash, when we go into cloud (at lowish level) which also appears to have snow. We are now committed to Wattisham; there are no other airfields open anywhere closer. First call to London radar elicits a certain amount of concern - 'we're on route to Wattisham' says I, 'oh no you're not' says London, 'they're Red with heavy snow and have had to close!' Once we got through to them it was there or nowhere certain alarm bells begin to ring and we are grudgingly vectored for a PAR, where the controller kindly informs us 'it's quite bad down here you know'. I tell him to keep talking down to touchdown point which luckily he does. At that point I closed the throttles, saw a light go under the wing and prayed I was on the runway. I was. The follow me truck came to find us, couldn't, went off the side of the runway and got stuck, so they sent out a snowplough with a crew bus behind, and we left the aircraft there, with almost no fuel, collecting it the following day when more of the runway was cleared and they could get a bowser to it.
So, why the diversion? The AOC wanted to personally see the information we had gathered. He couldn't get through because of the snow!
Why the snow? The met man offered profuse apologies (thank you!) - they had seen a developing low over the North Sea but didn't think it would affect them, and even if it did it would be long after anyone would be airborne!
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The AOC wanted to personally see the information we had gathered