Missing yacht
Will be given over to another agency, watch and see, it may happen after all of this
Just what other agency would want an armed MMA/MPA? What would be the point of buying a single role LRSAR acft? What other agency could afford to buy and operate it??
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: England
Posts: 924
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
People will ask why not?
Maybe he is being serious about the Sentinel? If a newspaper printed pictures for the general public, about what sort of aircraft the UK currently has, bet they'd include it. They'd include all those ones I've just posted above.
If the gap is there, then someone will be tasked to fill it with what we have.
I'm surprised more ex RAF Senior Officers haven't been up making some sort of capital about the recent events, in the Atlantic and the North Sea.
This is all small stuff in the great picture, callous though that is. What would happen these days if......we have a mid North Sea Ferry "Incident" or a Mid Atlantic but more our side of the pond Airliner ditching? This would be a major, major embarrassment, a potential election loser for a sitting UK Govt.
Only that sort of thing would focus a UK politicians mind, of the current generation.
If the gap is there, then someone will be tasked to fill it with what we have.
I'm surprised more ex RAF Senior Officers haven't been up making some sort of capital about the recent events, in the Atlantic and the North Sea.
This is all small stuff in the great picture, callous though that is. What would happen these days if......we have a mid North Sea Ferry "Incident" or a Mid Atlantic but more our side of the pond Airliner ditching? This would be a major, major embarrassment, a potential election loser for a sitting UK Govt.
Only that sort of thing would focus a UK politicians mind, of the current generation.
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: England
Posts: 924
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Roland no Im being not clear.
I mean one not dedicated for maritime warfighting. I mean a one for search of missing sailors, searching for contraband, smugglers, y know?
Seriously I think UK MCA, Coastguard, HM customs and excise- dual role sort of thing.
Seriously I think UK MCA, Coastguard, HM customs and excise- dual role sort of thing.
Why, when there is a known capability gap within the military sphere, would any other department go and buy a single role SAR/coastguard aircraft. Dept for Transport have long had responsibility for LR SAR - it is not a Military Task. However, DfT are unlikely to be able to afford their own fleet of LR SAR aircraft - even if that was to be half a dozen second hand marinised C130Js. Although...... when do the RAF start scrapping their Js?? Seriously though, the UK (Defence) has a known requirement for a MMA/MPA which could fill a large number of roles, including LR SAR from irreducible spare capacity.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What would happen these days if......we have a mid North Sea Ferry "Incident" or a Mid Atlantic but more our side of the pond Airliner ditching? This would be a major, major embarrassment,
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Whyte House
Age: 95
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I presume, WW, that your tongue is firmly in your cheek??
Just seems as though when anything 'kicks off' we send a Sentinel. Nothing to do with its intended scrapping, oh no sir, but one imagines meetings 'on high' with its senior officer 'sponsors' all present, arm aloft, bouncing up and down in their seats, pleading "me sir, me sir, choose me sir".
Last edited by Willard Whyte; 23rd May 2014 at 10:33.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,763
Received 2,750 Likes
on
1,171 Posts
Quote:
What would happen these days if......we have a mid North Sea Ferry "Incident" or a Mid Atlantic but more our side of the pond Airliner ditching? This would be a major, major embarrassment,
That is an understatement !
What would happen these days if......we have a mid North Sea Ferry "Incident" or a Mid Atlantic but more our side of the pond Airliner ditching? This would be a major, major embarrassment,
That is an understatement !
We'll just blame the French
Deep questions
it is interesting how we become more philosophical as the years advance. This whole sorry saga makes me wonder just what values underpin our civilisation and have we lost said values ? There is ample evidence of survival for many days in similar situations. I appreciate the difficulties of the merchant vessel being able to render any further assistance beyond their locating the upturned hull, Whilst this event has been unfolding I have clambered up and down the sides of similar vessels by rope ladder. I would not wish to do that at sea in a 20ft swell. The first (inescapable) duty of the master of the vessel is to his crew and their safety. Was a USCG vessel not immediately assigned to make best speed to the upturned hull? Its position could at least be monitored by a series of airborne SAR sorties? These threads always seem to end up with a discussion of MOD tasks versus DFT responsibilities... As a humble taxpayer I suggest that it is not unreasionable to expect a public asset to be used if there is a possibility, however remote, of a result. The achievements of the Nimrod crews over many years are respected and a source of justifiable pride to those of us who know or care about such things. This brings me to the previously mentioned letter to LAA members, one sailor is a fellow aviator. I received that email as I was working on a vessel in Europort and was annoyed at the apparent ignorance of the appellant (LAA) asking that the search be aided by an RAF patrol aircraft as good training value. I replied hastily as follows:
Royal Air Force plane to practice search techniques ?
I'm afraid not, neither did we send one to help search for the Malaysian Boeing. This is because the Royal Air Force retired its Nimrods early,before introduction of the ill fated Nimrod Mk4 ( a rebuild of earlier examples) and the government abandoned (scrapped|) the Mk4 in their 2010 defence review.
So, a planned 'capability gap' has become a 'capability chasm' with no indication of when we will recover this vital capability.
The United Kingdom, a maritime nation that depends highly on merchant shipping trade, has NO maritime patrol capability!
This is why we are reduced to begging others to help.
It looks bad for those men, but we should continue where there is hope and in particular, investigate the hull in the shortest possible timescale. Otherwise, I fear we have reached a point where we fail to be worthy of the description 'civilised'.
Royal Air Force plane to practice search techniques ?
I'm afraid not, neither did we send one to help search for the Malaysian Boeing. This is because the Royal Air Force retired its Nimrods early,before introduction of the ill fated Nimrod Mk4 ( a rebuild of earlier examples) and the government abandoned (scrapped|) the Mk4 in their 2010 defence review.
So, a planned 'capability gap' has become a 'capability chasm' with no indication of when we will recover this vital capability.
The United Kingdom, a maritime nation that depends highly on merchant shipping trade, has NO maritime patrol capability!
This is why we are reduced to begging others to help.
It looks bad for those men, but we should continue where there is hope and in particular, investigate the hull in the shortest possible timescale. Otherwise, I fear we have reached a point where we fail to be worthy of the description 'civilised'.
There has been no mention in the context of the resumed search of the upturned hull. Presumably that has now sunk. Was there any triangulation of the brief EPIRB signals received last weekend?
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The photo from the Maersk container ship suggested she had either hit or passed extremely close to the inverted yacht hull ion her path - sufficient, I am afraid, that the disturbance or imapct would likely have broken up any air cavity survivors in the hull were relying on...
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: England
Posts: 924
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BBC Radio 4 tonight.
UK Sec of State for Defence Hammond was on, primarily about recent elections, but he stayed on to asked a few things about the search. Strangely, Eddie Mair asked him one of my questions above about airliners ditching on "our" side of the Atlantic. Maybe Eddie s a pruner? Answers:
(a) In that event it'll be a multinational response. RN Ships will probably be dominant. (Like recently looking for the Malaysian plane). That no one found....
(b) Eddie sort of let him off about the binoculars + RAF Herc. lash up being used to look for the missing yacht, but he did raise the point of its relevence.
(c) The USCG search will cease tomorrow, the RAF will carry a little further on the remainder of the day with its "sorties". But cease tomorrow evening (think that was right). Why so?
(d) Hammond is as slippery as any and played his cards right, and I think won this limited discussion.
And so it ends.
(a) In that event it'll be a multinational response. RN Ships will probably be dominant. (Like recently looking for the Malaysian plane). That no one found....
(b) Eddie sort of let him off about the binoculars + RAF Herc. lash up being used to look for the missing yacht, but he did raise the point of its relevence.
(c) The USCG search will cease tomorrow, the RAF will carry a little further on the remainder of the day with its "sorties". But cease tomorrow evening (think that was right). Why so?
(d) Hammond is as slippery as any and played his cards right, and I think won this limited discussion.
And so it ends.
Sadly, and with a heavy heart as the parent of youngster who qualified Ocean Yachtmaster Commercial only a year or two before this skipper, I think they have now done as much and maybe more then was reasonable. Who knows what the outcome might have been if the two days had not been lost, and the container ship had acted, or been able to act, differently.
RiP to the crew lost, and let the yachting and SAR worlds see what lessons, if any can be learned.
My heart and thoughts are with the families and friends.
RiP to the crew lost, and let the yachting and SAR worlds see what lessons, if any can be learned.
My heart and thoughts are with the families and friends.
As a transatlantic sailor myself, I find myself in agreement. At very least, the restart of the search gave the families comfort in the knowledge that the crew were not bobbing around the high seas in a hopless state.
RIP guys. El G.
RIP guys. El G.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,763
Received 2,750 Likes
on
1,171 Posts
I just hope it gives closure one way or the other for the families, if no one is onboard then I hope they find the raft and equipment missing that may extend the search, if they find bodies then that will give the families closure.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I like this
"The hull of the missing UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki has been found in North Atlantic ocean, the US Coast Guard has told the BBC
A spokesman said a surface swimmer had identified the name on the back of the boat, but was unable to go inside."
That would be cold !!!
"The hull of the missing UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki has been found in North Atlantic ocean, the US Coast Guard has told the BBC
A spokesman said a surface swimmer had identified the name on the back of the boat, but was unable to go inside."
That would be cold !!!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys, there is a lot of talk about things being different if we had an MPA and what if a liner sank mid atlantic.
What exactly do you think an MPA would bring to such an event?
If a liner is sinking then the lifeboats all have beacons. The MPA can only act as a search asset. If they are in lifeboats then they will be ok till the ships home to the beacon. If not then they will drown/die of hypothermia whether there is an MPA overhead anyway.
If it is an airliner crashing then what exactly does anyone think an MPA can do for the passengers? If they come down in one piece, then there are beacon applenty. If not, then recent events have shown just how useless state of the art MPAs can be.
Let's not get carried away about haw useful an MPA is in these circumstances.
As locator beacon tech has got better and more ubiquitous, the role of an MPA has become ever more tenuous.
What exactly do you think an MPA would bring to such an event?
If a liner is sinking then the lifeboats all have beacons. The MPA can only act as a search asset. If they are in lifeboats then they will be ok till the ships home to the beacon. If not then they will drown/die of hypothermia whether there is an MPA overhead anyway.
If it is an airliner crashing then what exactly does anyone think an MPA can do for the passengers? If they come down in one piece, then there are beacon applenty. If not, then recent events have shown just how useless state of the art MPAs can be.
Let's not get carried away about haw useful an MPA is in these circumstances.
As locator beacon tech has got better and more ubiquitous, the role of an MPA has become ever more tenuous.