Missing yacht

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

It's 95% underwater, without a keel. How much do you think it would cost to tow it 1,000nm+, or lift it?
Try getting a quote!

[RileyDove]

I wasn't suggesting towing it 1000 miles - is it beyond the imagination that there is any ship in the Atlantic that has the ability to recover a 40 foot boat from the water?

[500N]

Probably a specialist one with a low section. I wouldn't want to be trying to lift that hull, with or without water in it as a dead weight.

[RileyDove]

I think the efforts to find and investigate the boat have been superb -I just feel that to recover it would help answer a lot of questions as to why the situation escalated so much. It could well be that the insurers and boat builders are already investigating doing it as I am sure there would be litigation on the horizon and to know exactly what caused it could potentially save someone's insurer millions . It would be interesting to see the GPS track for where its heading!

[FrustratedFormerFlie]

Fox3 and Gipsy Queen: my point about sending a 'no nonsense MAYDAY' was that the early reports of this incident (here and on YBW) speak of the crew being uncertain of the source of the substantial ingress, in contact with the charter base by satphone, having the situation "stabilised", and diverting several hunderd miles to the Azores. These reports make no mention of a MAYDAY until contact was lost and the PLBs activated

My point is that, c600nm from land, in rapidly detereriorating weather and with substantial unstemmed water ingress from an unidentified source - THAT was the time for the MAYDAY. Yet the only reference is to a satphone converstaion with the charter base followed by loss of contact and activation of PLBs

Of course such a timely MAYDAY may have been sent, and it's just not clear from the reports that this was the case - in which case my thoughts should be disregarded as not relevant.

Re the right time for a MAYDAY, I am reminded of the addage about 'the right time to reef' being 'the first time you think about it'

[Trim Stab]

not all those potential leak sources are checkable at sea.

Yes they are. Boats of that construction era all have immediately liftable panels and floorboards throughout the yacht. If you know the boat you can eliminate all causes of likely leaks within a few minutes. The only potential leak which is very hard to confirm/eliminate is a keel bolt leek. So if all the usual suspects have been eliminated, you have to presume a keel problem and act accordingly.

Even if the leak had been traced to the keel, your drill of everyone on deck, sail downwind (where to?)

They were on a West-East crossing of the Atlantic, so somewhere within an eastwards cyclonic depression. i would have lain a-hull with sea anchors from the bow (in a fin keel yacht like that), and awaited the eastern edge of the depression (i.e. northerlies), then headed south to calmer waters, and eventually (assuming help had not arrived) could have eventually picked up the easterly trade winds and gone back to the Caribbean downwind. They would have had at least four weeks supplies on board so could easily have adopted such a strategy.

still leaves them in a sinking yacht, thousands of miles from safety, exhausted and hypothermic.

The yacht wasn't really sinking until the keel fell off. It may have been leaking - but it it had been really "sinking" they would have abandoned earlier.

Nor was your comment about "liferaft buried in a locker" borne out by the US Coastguard swimmer.

I was using the term generically as usually on regatta-oriented yachts the lifreaft is often very inaccessible in either a cabin or deep in a locker. In a cruising yacht it is more easily deployable, either in a cradle on the transom or on the deck in front of the mast, but even so it requires undoing a fiddly "quick" release catch and a fair bit of force to get it out of its cradle (otherwise a random wave could deploy it). Yachts of that size do not have hydrostatic release life rafts.

In a yacht where an experienced crew have recognised that they were expecting an imminent capsize, the liferaft would be loose in the cockpit attached to the yacht only by its trigger line, so if the yacht goes over the liferaft will deploy without having to fumble for tiny release catches which are impossible to feel even in the dark, let alone underwater.

The fact that the coastguard swimmer found the raft normally stowed (whether in a locker or under the helmsman's seat which is usual for Beneteau's of that size) shows that the crew had not realised that hat they had a keel problem and had not anticipated a capsize at any moment.

[Lonewolf_50]

In an effort to capture the love for sailing boats, I offer the following link for those who follow that inner voice, which tells them ...

"I must go down to the sea again ..."

This muse the unfortunate four were doubtless blessed with, in abundance.

There is something profoundly beautiful about a well built boat under sail.

[ShotOne]

Trim, granted the leak could have been localised to their keel -and for all we know, they did so. But lots of boats suffer leaks, mostly not warranting a mayday, while keel failures are exceptionally rare. I suggest the rest is simply reverse-engineering their decision making based on the known outcome.

Many thanks to USCG and all involved in the search and to US taxpayers for paying for it .

[Wrathmonk]

Slightly off thread, but on a similar (sad) vein, I wonder if the Mountain Rescue Teams, Junglies etc have been put on stand-by awaiting direction from 'Call Me Dave'.

BBC News - Gareth Huntley's mother asks PM David Cameron for help

And dare I add - if not, why not?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Exactly - floodgates open now.
Before you know it, it'll be a phone vote show on primetime TV to decide where the SAR girls & boys go next. Wills will have to do a 'Celebrity Rescue' at Xmas.

[Gipsy Queen]

Originally Posted by Fox3WheresMyBanana

Gipsy Queen. If you're going to be pedantic, at least get it right



http://msi.nga.mil/MSISiteContent/St...17chapter4.pdf

and your qualifications are...? In need of refreshing, at the very least.

I was searching for something wholly unrelated when I and stumbled across this long-dead topic. It is now exactly four years later that, just for the hell of it, I'm responding to what I am sure will be an empty ether but here goes - it could be interesting to see if anything happens.

Not for a moment would I dispute that my knowledge needs updating. I last read the Air Navigation Order at its 1974 amendment adoption - I have been retired from commercial flying for a while! However, this publication confirmed my interpretation of the Mayday position. More recently, I have logged more than 17,000NM as a yacht owner and held a RYA/DTp Yachtmaster Offshore Certificate with Ocean Endorsement. Regs. appertaining thereto substantially are the same as above. The sources you have cited are domestic to the USA and not universally adopted as international standards like SOLAS and others. For that reason I am ignorant of North American practises which seldom are in harmony with the rest of the world. The "Red right returning" dictum (contrary to IALA stipulations) is typical of this insularity.

[nonsense]

Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen

...For that reason I am ignorant of North American practises which seldom are in harmony with the rest of the world. The "Red right returning" dictum (contrary to IALA stipulations) is typical of this insularity.

For the benefit of the non-sailors reading this; when heading into port (returning), red marks are kept to port and green to starboard.

Except of course in the Americas, Korea, Japan and the Phillipines, where they use exactly the opposite "standard", "red right returning"!
Presumably the aberant Asian areas are a result of American influence during reconstruction/development immediately after the second world war.

http://safe-skipper.com/an-explanati...-a-and-iala-b/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_mark#IALA_System

[pasta]

Originally Posted by nonsense

Except of course in the Americas, Korea, Japan and the Phillipines, where they use exactly the opposite "standard", "red right returning"!

I very nearly came to grief in Bermuda as a result of this mismatch; Bermuda, of course, is a British dependency but uses the American system.
There were two parallel channels leading out of the harbour with a submerged obstacle between them; we looked ahead, saw a red buoy to the right, and a green to the left, and naturally assumed it was safe to exit between them. Thanks to my eagle-eyed crew for spotting, at the last minute, another red buoy much further to our left, next to an island...

[Recc]

Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen

More recently, I have logged more than 17,000NM as a yacht owner and held a RYA/DTp Yachtmaster Offshore Certificate with Ocean Endorsement. Regs. appertaining thereto substantially are the same as above.

That is at least 20 years out of date. It used to be the case that mayday was reserved for danger to vessels only, but under SOLAS and UK law (The Merchant Shipping (Distress Signals and Prevention of Collisions) Regulations 1996) distress signals are now reserved for situations where there is grave and imminent danger to either a vessel or human life. In practical terms, this means that there is no reason for not pressing the big red button on the radio as soon as is practical after someone falls over the side. Indeed, 'man overboard' is an internationally recognised class for a designated DSC distress call. It was a sensible amendment in my opinion.

[Gipsy Queen]

Originally Posted by Recc

That is at least 20 years out of date. It used to be the case that mayday was reserved for danger to vessels only, but under SOLAS and UK law (The Merchant Shipping (Distress Signals and Prevention of Collisions) Regulations 1996) distress signals are now reserved for situations where there is grave and imminent danger to either a vessel or human life. In practical terms, this means that there is no reason for not pressing the big red button on the radio as soon as is practical after someone falls over the side. Indeed, 'man overboard' is an internationally recognised class for a designated DSC distress call. It was a sensible amendment in my opinion.

I readily admit that I'm hardly current when it comes to these things. I've not been in the left hand seat for more than 30 years and last commanded a vessel in 1994. I suppose what I really was griping about was the North Americans' reluctance to engage with the wider world and absorb something from others. I well remember the threat of being keel-hauled when on anchor off a Caribbean island (Rum Quay?) and sought advice on channel 16, complaining about the inaccuracy of the local pilot. This was taken to be a criticism of the chap that flew the island's push me/pull you Cessna and I had to do some hasty translation, none too successfully I fear as in American waters (or those within the American sphere of influence), universally recognised simplex radio procedure is unknown and substituted by truckers' CB language, Good Buddy.

[SASless]

Try this Link....look down the chart for Channel 16....then Channel 72.

Had you asked for some help re "local knowledge" on Channel 16 and asked any helper meet you on Channel 72....you would have gotten the help.

Whining on 16 is where you went wrong it would appear.

The USA does not have a monopoly on being the wrong way around.....as far more folks drive on the opposite side of the road than in the UK.

So before you sound off like yet another Colonel Blimp.....;think about the fact that even within the USA there are variances with the Red/Right/Returning Rule....depending upon where the Channel begins and whether it is part of the Inland Coastal Waterway (ICW).

Call up the maritime charts for the area around Morehead City, North Carolina....Cape Lookout....and Core Sound and examine the Channel Markings you can find there.

After all....our waters cover from the farthest tip of the Aleutian Islands clear down to the Caribbean and up to the tip of Maine.....a not inconsequential chunk of navigable water.

That does not include the Great Lakes alone....which dwarf UK waters.


Yes....I was the Captain/Master of a sea going vessel...before you ask.


https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=mtvhf

[Tankertrashnav]

The USA does not have a monopoly on being the wrong way around.....as far more folks drive on the opposite side of the road than in the UK.

True, but not by as much as some may think. It's about 65%/35% in favour of driving on the right, with about 78 territories having the "drive on the left" rule. A lot of these are quite small but the list includes 3 of the world's top ten countries by population, namely Japan, Indonesia and India. A good pub quiz question is "which two countries on the American continental mainland drive on the left?" A lot of people might guess Guyana, a former British territory, but the other is its neighbour Suriname.

[SASless]

In these shallow waters....even the least bit of confusion can find you waiting on a raising tide or tow boat....while the Mozzies and Green Flies eat you for their Lunch.

Add in the ever changing channels due to the sand drifting about with tide, wind, storm, and natural erosion....moored marks drifting or disappearing....and shoals creeping past pole marks overnight....and keeping the Pilot Notes current becomes a bit of a challenge.

The USCG recently elected to REMOVE the marks in an area known locally as the Drain because the channel did not carry six feet over its length....which just added to the fun and games.

Fortunately Tide Fall is slightly less than three feet in normal times so it is not like the UK where there is such a huge variance between Tides.

Fishing Rules are even more fun yet....what with State, Federal, and International Rules, Regulations, Laws, and Procedures.