Inappropriate trophy photos
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Beagle,
Of the hundreds if not thousands of such events against Allied Airmen...you pick one about an American Pilot shooting a German?
Might I remind you of how the game was played during WWII....it was no where as dignified as you wish to think.
Shall we remind you of the "Commando Order", the Murder of RAF Officers during the Great Escape, and all the other Atrocities committed by German Forces against Allied Airmen and Soldiers? Ever read up on the atrocities committed against Allied Bomber Crews after they parachuted from damaged and downed aircraft?
Get your head out of your Butt....you can call such actions War Crimes....but in the scheme of things....it amounts to nothing.
The Germans and Japanese were murdering Tens of Millions of Human Beings....and you get some begotten notion about the Chivalry between Airmen?
Do spare me will you....War is about killing the enemy forces personnel and rendering as many as possible Combat Ineffective. Killing them dead accomplishes that.
Of the hundreds if not thousands of such events against Allied Airmen...you pick one about an American Pilot shooting a German?
Might I remind you of how the game was played during WWII....it was no where as dignified as you wish to think.
Shall we remind you of the "Commando Order", the Murder of RAF Officers during the Great Escape, and all the other Atrocities committed by German Forces against Allied Airmen and Soldiers? Ever read up on the atrocities committed against Allied Bomber Crews after they parachuted from damaged and downed aircraft?
Get your head out of your Butt....you can call such actions War Crimes....but in the scheme of things....it amounts to nothing.
The Germans and Japanese were murdering Tens of Millions of Human Beings....and you get some begotten notion about the Chivalry between Airmen?
Do spare me will you....War is about killing the enemy forces personnel and rendering as many as possible Combat Ineffective. Killing them dead accomplishes that.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Melmoth,
I am astounded at the vitriol and denial your response has generated. Clearly those who have not had to deal with battlefield fatalities are unable to imagine the lurid consequences of taking such photographs. Anyone stupid enough to take such pictures deserves everything they get and more. Anyone defending such actions while still serving or retired is a disgrace to that uniform. We are not fighting the Taliban so we can all act like crazed lunatics, we are trying to demonstrate that moral fortitude and ethical conduct are societal norms in a civilized group. This behavior is beyond the pale and will hopefully be dealt with as such. This is not the moral high ground, this is a basic tenet of social responsibility.
I am astounded at the vitriol and denial your response has generated. Clearly those who have not had to deal with battlefield fatalities are unable to imagine the lurid consequences of taking such photographs. Anyone stupid enough to take such pictures deserves everything they get and more. Anyone defending such actions while still serving or retired is a disgrace to that uniform. We are not fighting the Taliban so we can all act like crazed lunatics, we are trying to demonstrate that moral fortitude and ethical conduct are societal norms in a civilized group. This behavior is beyond the pale and will hopefully be dealt with as such. This is not the moral high ground, this is a basic tenet of social responsibility.
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What astounds me is how close the Taliban got to the EFi. If not, that couldnt possibly be a member of the RAF Regt.
Twos in, I'm guessing youve never served on the ground or even on an Op tour? Are you the PR rep of the RAF? If not, you're coming across as the typical Crab politico.
Twos in, I'm guessing youve never served on the ground or even on an Op tour? Are you the PR rep of the RAF? If not, you're coming across as the typical Crab politico.
Given a government has decided that it will release its armed troops to use deadly force against an enemy in what ever possible way they can - the ultimate insult to another human being - how can they be so hypocritical to criticize the same troops when they show a fairly subdued level of relief at having survived the conflict they have been ordered to undertake?
War Crimes
BB
2 wrongs do not make a right. The example BEags gave us was a war crime then. The fact that other crimes were committed does not excuse the act described. If butt extraction is required then others need to do so.
2 wrongs do not make a right. The example BEags gave us was a war crime then. The fact that other crimes were committed does not excuse the act described. If butt extraction is required then others need to do so.
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I can't really see why there is a fuss about these pics. In neither published picture is the body being touched or degraded in any way. Yes it is against the MoD rules, so some minor ticking off. But this is in no way comparable with previous incidents involving both our friends and our enemies and certainly does't seem to be a geneva convention breach as the BBC suggested.
If anything the first image on the BBC looks quite innocent.
Kneeling in position when someone asks "have you checked that body" turns to say yes with a thumbs up as photo taken. No case to answer - move along.
If anything the first image on the BBC looks quite innocent.
Kneeling in position when someone asks "have you checked that body" turns to say yes with a thumbs up as photo taken. No case to answer - move along.
Well, as I said previously Roland, I wonder if folks would be quite so ready to offer mitigation if it were Taliban standing over dead British soldiers.
There has been a lot of hand-wringing and holier-than-thou preaching on this thread already over our need to be whiter than white in Afghanistan against a perfidious enemy a la Bastion Attack 2012.
This is an enemy who doesn't respect international law, Amnesty, Chami Chakrabarty and Phil Shiner et al, the Geneva Conventions or at the least, Mumsnet.
These bodies were not urinated on or defaced. It was just some pictures. Let the lads who are pulling out of that sh*thole do it in the best way they see fit, without the dubious 'glory' of being the last Serviceman to die in 2014-5.
We are in a new paradigm of waging war it appears, against a type of enemy throughout the developing world that will stop at nothing to kill me and mine. Still only 18 months before I retire and the war is over for me. I wonder how long the Great British Public will remember me and my ilk after the GWOT...2, 3, 4, years? I wonder if H4H will be just a quaint icon that flashes up on ipad quiz games...
Boudreaux Bob, most of the recorded instances of violence against crews who had bailed out of their aircraft were perpetrated by non-combatants.
As for the murder of the Stalag III escapees, Göring, Keitel, Westhoff and von Graevenitz (who was head of the department in charge of prisoners of war), all argued against any executions as a violation of the Geneva Conventions. Hitler then ordered Himmler to execute more than half of the escapees. Himmler passed the selection on to General Arthur Nebe.
Regarding the Kommandobefehl, some commanders such as Rommel refused to enforce it. All captured German officers who had ordered execution of commandos following this order from Hitler were found guilty of war crimes and most were executed following sentence at Nuremberg.
Boudreuax Bob wrote:
And your excuse for My Lai and the subsequent cover up?
As vasco. hinted, perhaps you might need to apply some of your own product:
Daysleeper wrote:
Whether or not this constitutes violation of the Geneva Conventions in that they might be considered 'desecration' remains to be established. But the utter stupidity of those posing for or taking the photographs is abundantly clear.
As for the murder of the Stalag III escapees, Göring, Keitel, Westhoff and von Graevenitz (who was head of the department in charge of prisoners of war), all argued against any executions as a violation of the Geneva Conventions. Hitler then ordered Himmler to execute more than half of the escapees. Himmler passed the selection on to General Arthur Nebe.
Regarding the Kommandobefehl, some commanders such as Rommel refused to enforce it. All captured German officers who had ordered execution of commandos following this order from Hitler were found guilty of war crimes and most were executed following sentence at Nuremberg.
Boudreuax Bob wrote:
Do spare me will you....War is about killing the enemy forces personnel and rendering as many as possible Combat Ineffective. Killing them dead accomplishes that.
As vasco. hinted, perhaps you might need to apply some of your own product:
Daysleeper wrote:
I can't really see why there is a fuss about these pics.
Last edited by BEagle; 10th May 2014 at 08:13.
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Equality in the Eyes of the Law
As we are all equal in the eyes of the law, may we expect to see the Taliban taking their fighters to court for the appalling atrocities practised by them against Allied military personnel? Thought not!
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I seem to have got my moral compass skewed.
Can Ppruners please help me with a compass swing?
Can posters just confirm we all agree on these statements please?
1. Taking photos next to dead bodies of combatants in post fight adrenaline rush is reprehensible.
2. Gun camera footage and guided bomb footage showing actual kills is good and suitable for transmission on the news.
3. Shooting pilot under parachute post dogfight is bad because he cannot fight back despite the fact that when he lands he will get in another aircraft and be used against you.
4. Shooting pilot of enemy transport plane is good despite the fact that he cannot fight back because the materiel or personnel on board will be used against you once they land.
5. Carpet bombing cities full of unarmed women and children is good and bomber command deserved a medal.
6. Spending your entire career as a V force pilot waiting to nuc Russian cities full of non combatants is good and praiseworthy.
7. Anti personnel mines are bad because they maim.
8. Bullets are good because they kill.
9. Torture is a bad thing and anyway studies show it doesn't work.
10 The Germans used torture to roll up French resistance networks and our military assumes that knowledge you have will be compromised after capture because torture works if you are a bad guy.
I'm sure I missed a few.
Can Ppruners please help me with a compass swing?
Can posters just confirm we all agree on these statements please?
1. Taking photos next to dead bodies of combatants in post fight adrenaline rush is reprehensible.
2. Gun camera footage and guided bomb footage showing actual kills is good and suitable for transmission on the news.
3. Shooting pilot under parachute post dogfight is bad because he cannot fight back despite the fact that when he lands he will get in another aircraft and be used against you.
4. Shooting pilot of enemy transport plane is good despite the fact that he cannot fight back because the materiel or personnel on board will be used against you once they land.
5. Carpet bombing cities full of unarmed women and children is good and bomber command deserved a medal.
6. Spending your entire career as a V force pilot waiting to nuc Russian cities full of non combatants is good and praiseworthy.
7. Anti personnel mines are bad because they maim.
8. Bullets are good because they kill.
9. Torture is a bad thing and anyway studies show it doesn't work.
10 The Germans used torture to roll up French resistance networks and our military assumes that knowledge you have will be compromised after capture because torture works if you are a bad guy.
I'm sure I missed a few.
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The guys in the photographs had just been in a violent, terrifying fight to the death at night with a fearless and determined enemy and had eventually won. They are pumped up with adrenaline, elation and relief at still being alive. A smile and a thumbs up are entirely understandable and not in the slightest reprehensible. They should not be disciplined.
The crime, if there is one, lies with the photographer who recorded the event and subsequently sold the pictures to the media sharks to exploit. He and the media are the ones who have disrespected the enemy dead, if anyone did. It is they that should be investigated and punished.
What are the odds though?
The crime, if there is one, lies with the photographer who recorded the event and subsequently sold the pictures to the media sharks to exploit. He and the media are the ones who have disrespected the enemy dead, if anyone did. It is they that should be investigated and punished.
What are the odds though?
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Also the intended punishment is possibly to protect the guilty idiots involved. Mr Taliban is not going to let this go. Post Afghan they could possibly seek revenge on said idiot in photo or even worse, his family.
Remember the enemy can travel too and they are not all stupid!. I for one would now forever be looking over my shoulder if it were me in the photo. You just dont do it. It can also be used in propaganda tactics.
Rule number one just dont expose yourself to the unnecessary. Another big threat to the services is social media.
Remember the enemy can travel too and they are not all stupid!. I for one would now forever be looking over my shoulder if it were me in the photo. You just dont do it. It can also be used in propaganda tactics.
Rule number one just dont expose yourself to the unnecessary. Another big threat to the services is social media.
There is nothing new in photographs of dead enemies. This was happening a hundred years ago:
I am astounded at the vitriol and denial your response has generated.
In neither published picture is the body being touched or degraded in any way
Tourist, I agree that there are many grey areas when it comes to morality in the conduct in war, but can we not agree that taking trophy photographs of dead enemy combatants is just plain wrong?
Kneeling in position when someone asks "have you checked that body" turns to say yes with a thumbs up as photo taken. No case to answer - move along.
Well in that case we'll just have to appeal to the shadow Taliban government for a thorough and comprehensive investigation into possible Taliban war crimes. Oh really, we can't do such a thing? I wonder why not...?
The crime, if there is one, lies with the photographer who recorded the event and subsequently sold the pictures to the media sharks to exploit
The crime, if there is one, lies with the photographer who recorded the event and subsequently sold the pictures to the media sharks to exploit.
Remember the enemy can travel too and they are not all stupid
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"Tourist, I agree that there are many grey areas when it comes to morality in the conduct in war, but can we not agree that taking trophy photographs of dead enemy combatants is just plain wrong? "
My personal opinion is that compared to the morality of war in general, the immorality of taking a picture by a body disappears in the noise.
Vasco
I am well aware it is a crime. I am also aware that it was not a crime to drop on Hiroshima.
Just because a committee decided the legality of some events does not make them right or wrong.
My personal opinion is that compared to the morality of war in general, the immorality of taking a picture by a body disappears in the noise.
Vasco
I am well aware it is a crime. I am also aware that it was not a crime to drop on Hiroshima.
Just because a committee decided the legality of some events does not make them right or wrong.