Surprise, Surprise.
DCTykes Link is to a good (and true) story...but you don't have to read between the lines too much to see what a pickle there was for this "success" to be published.
The true story, however, is in the manpower, man-management and technical procedure failures that created the need for this eventual "success".
The true story, however, is in the manpower, man-management and technical procedure failures that created the need for this eventual "success".
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Surprise, Surprise.
The report is interesting however it was a sticking plaster fix as the squadron in question disbanded shortly after. I was there until just before this happened, one of the TG1 NCOs who decided to walk. Can't say I'm surprised.
As Enginesuck says, the report shows a that there was a short interval of sticking plasters being thrown at Lossie to get them through the recognised dip - but nothing of substance for any longer term nor even a review of anything else for the rest of the RAF.
This was indeed a PR success as it looked like "they" actually did something positive - but - in reality nothing was done and the "fixes" faded to nothing within a month or so....
MOD's just waiting 'til the next time then?
This was indeed a PR success as it looked like "they" actually did something positive - but - in reality nothing was done and the "fixes" faded to nothing within a month or so....
MOD's just waiting 'til the next time then?
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In 1940 a certain Sqn Ldr Bader took command of 242 Sqn at Coltishall. Prior to his appointment the Sqn had taken a mauling care of the Luftwaffe and they had no ground support equipment/tools/spares etc.
All Bader had was 14 brand shiny new Hurricanes but he had the balls to refuse to declare to Group that his squadron was ready for ops until he had got said spares etc.
Not surprisingly he got summoned to Group HQ for tea and no biccies with the AOC pdq. There he made the valid point that with no fitters/ground crew/spares etc. the squadron would be unable to sustain any ops for more than a day or two.
The result? He got his spares/groundcrew/tools etc. within a couple of days and more importantly he got the respect of both his squadron and his AOC! I can't see any Wg Cdr or Gp Capt doing the same today yet squadrons are expected to perform as normal when seriously under-strength, due to cuts and/or a serious exodus of experience and we are still expected to field a "Premiership" team......it's like trying to play professional football with only 8 (or less) in the team. Doubtless, there are still good "players" in the RAF but if under-strength, how can we possibly win unless we opt for five-a-side and forget playing in the league any more?
I really do feel sorry for those having to cope with the stress of having to compromise their standards because of the pressures of being expected to maintain flying rates/serviceability states/targets with insufficient resources. Small wonder morale is so bad and retention so poor.
MB
All Bader had was 14 brand shiny new Hurricanes but he had the balls to refuse to declare to Group that his squadron was ready for ops until he had got said spares etc.
Not surprisingly he got summoned to Group HQ for tea and no biccies with the AOC pdq. There he made the valid point that with no fitters/ground crew/spares etc. the squadron would be unable to sustain any ops for more than a day or two.
The result? He got his spares/groundcrew/tools etc. within a couple of days and more importantly he got the respect of both his squadron and his AOC! I can't see any Wg Cdr or Gp Capt doing the same today yet squadrons are expected to perform as normal when seriously under-strength, due to cuts and/or a serious exodus of experience and we are still expected to field a "Premiership" team......it's like trying to play professional football with only 8 (or less) in the team. Doubtless, there are still good "players" in the RAF but if under-strength, how can we possibly win unless we opt for five-a-side and forget playing in the league any more?
I really do feel sorry for those having to cope with the stress of having to compromise their standards because of the pressures of being expected to maintain flying rates/serviceability states/targets with insufficient resources. Small wonder morale is so bad and retention so poor.
MB
enginesuck, gr4techie et al, this all happened after my time at Lossie... but as people at the forefront, do you think there was anything that could have been done to stop the exodus? What, if anything, would have kept you there?
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War is unlikely.
I have to but in at about post 68 but theres a reason for all this. War is unlikely.
Serious significant war among the powers that really matter is unlikely.
It will interfere with money, business and commerce in the global village. (the posh end of the village, not the council houses-they can go and rot, same as ever).
You are just splitting hares, same as ever. Poor old hare.
Serious significant war among the powers that really matter is unlikely.
It will interfere with money, business and commerce in the global village. (the posh end of the village, not the council houses-they can go and rot, same as ever).
You are just splitting hares, same as ever. Poor old hare.
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Surprise, Surprise.
5 forward - Nothing would have kept me there, the work life balance had gone. As a Squadron we had only 28 weeks between 4.5 month tours in KAF, in that time the first round of redundancies had kicked in and the squadron lost many experienced guys, this was supplemented by posting in guys from another disbanded Squadron and the cohesion and teamwork just wasn't there.
I remember being told to go on a Q course a week after returning from Ops - to live in a Portacabin at Marham , further months away from family, and I would have to pay food charges for the privilege ! - I refused to go. In two years at Lossie and two Ops tours I had not done one Tornado specific technical course - there wasn't the time ! By the time I'd left I was one of the most experienced NCOs on the squadron ! I know it's not quite the same but imagine aircrew on ops without completing the OCU !
I and many others saw how the guys who had left via PVR and the first tranche, had got on in the big bad world and it was pretty encouraging.
We were 1 month into our second tour when Volunteers were asked for the second round of redundancies were trawled. It was a no brainer.
What leaving has meant for me is that now I have a job where I am treated as an adult, I have quality time with my children and Wife, I earn so much more than I did when in the service, if I have training to complete I am accommodated in suitable hotels, flights home at weekend, a corporate credit card means I never have to spend my salary on work related expenses.
The RAF can't and won't compete.
I remember being told to go on a Q course a week after returning from Ops - to live in a Portacabin at Marham , further months away from family, and I would have to pay food charges for the privilege ! - I refused to go. In two years at Lossie and two Ops tours I had not done one Tornado specific technical course - there wasn't the time ! By the time I'd left I was one of the most experienced NCOs on the squadron ! I know it's not quite the same but imagine aircrew on ops without completing the OCU !
I and many others saw how the guys who had left via PVR and the first tranche, had got on in the big bad world and it was pretty encouraging.
We were 1 month into our second tour when Volunteers were asked for the second round of redundancies were trawled. It was a no brainer.
What leaving has meant for me is that now I have a job where I am treated as an adult, I have quality time with my children and Wife, I earn so much more than I did when in the service, if I have training to complete I am accommodated in suitable hotels, flights home at weekend, a corporate credit card means I never have to spend my salary on work related expenses.
The RAF can't and won't compete.
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One of the other reasons for the shortfall is that when it was announced that Leuchars was to shut and everything was moving to Lossie people started leaving in droves, I know about a dozen or so guys (C/Tech down to SAC) who got new jobs and put their notice in, a very good friend of mine was out in 1 month, a very experienced Typhoon leckie, manager & trainer, lost because of some ginger gits political agenda.
Several pilots also left because they didn't want to move and civvys are moving on too because they don't want the move north, I'm one of them, the most experienced man in my section, no incentive from my company to move, no incentive to stay till the end. I start my new job next month, not losing out financially and don't have all the hassles of a house move.
Unfortunately, as with everything of this nature, nothing will be done until someone gets hurt (or worse), then the finger of blame will still not be pointed upwards at the right people.
After a 30 year association with the RAF, either serving or as a civilian contractor I am leaving it all behind, there are many that will follow this route too, the politicians will get their reduced numbers and be happy and we will be left with a dearth of experience and talent from top to bottom and the RAF will become a dangerous company to work for.
I'm not going to miss it and that, for me, is the saddest part.
Several pilots also left because they didn't want to move and civvys are moving on too because they don't want the move north, I'm one of them, the most experienced man in my section, no incentive from my company to move, no incentive to stay till the end. I start my new job next month, not losing out financially and don't have all the hassles of a house move.
Unfortunately, as with everything of this nature, nothing will be done until someone gets hurt (or worse), then the finger of blame will still not be pointed upwards at the right people.
After a 30 year association with the RAF, either serving or as a civilian contractor I am leaving it all behind, there are many that will follow this route too, the politicians will get their reduced numbers and be happy and we will be left with a dearth of experience and talent from top to bottom and the RAF will become a dangerous company to work for.
I'm not going to miss it and that, for me, is the saddest part.
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5 forward 6 back. To answer your question...
I second Enginesuck observations in post (my keyboard doesn't have a hash key) 69.
I would like to add the biggest problem for me is that loyalty and respect should be a two way thing.... Some shiny in P1 demands respect, integrity, service and excellence from me. But when I'm working my balls off in unpleasant conditions I'm not seeing any of that back. There just is no incentive or recognition.
Also, when I come across cases like Enginesuck's course at Marham, I often think "would any civvy company put up with this s***"? The X factor pay falls way way short of compensating for it.
I second Enginesuck observations in post (my keyboard doesn't have a hash key) 69.
I would like to add the biggest problem for me is that loyalty and respect should be a two way thing.... Some shiny in P1 demands respect, integrity, service and excellence from me. But when I'm working my balls off in unpleasant conditions I'm not seeing any of that back. There just is no incentive or recognition.
Also, when I come across cases like Enginesuck's course at Marham, I often think "would any civvy company put up with this s***"? The X factor pay falls way way short of compensating for it.
gr4techie,
when I studied constitutional law loyalty was defined as a two way street. The allegiance owed by those 'below' and the protection provided by those 'above'. We hear plenty of calls for the former but very few signs of the latter. Probably it was always the case to some extent but appears to have become worse in recent years.
when I studied constitutional law loyalty was defined as a two way street. The allegiance owed by those 'below' and the protection provided by those 'above'. We hear plenty of calls for the former but very few signs of the latter. Probably it was always the case to some extent but appears to have become worse in recent years.
My time ended in 1997, and all I've heard from both former colleagues, and more recent entrants to civvy street is the feeling of not being valued, a total esteem killer for blokes who are working their goolies off. I spent several years as a C130 AGE, something I volunteered for, and was able to avoid home on average for 270 days a year for six straight years. The thought that just about everyone is being hit with that sort of "time away, whilst also being affected in the wallet must be bloody galling. I like many watch the cutbacks, the delays in contracts and the general sacrificing of our Military forces on the altar of austerity and saving the economy. All the while seeing billions thrown away in foreign aid and EU subscription. I feel very sad that we have reached this parlous position.
Smudge
Smudge
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One of the problems we have faced over time is that the "operational necessity to get us through a specific task" becomes "that's how we do business". The term "Normalising Deviance" is used to explain how we start by patching things up with the best intent of doing it properly, but we never quite get round to fixing it and the patch becomes the norm.
So did the shortage of techies (and here I count myself as one who jumped) get masked by the "Can do" attitude the RAF is famous for, until we have passed the point of no-return?
So did the shortage of techies (and here I count myself as one who jumped) get masked by the "Can do" attitude the RAF is famous for, until we have passed the point of no-return?
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I've just read all the posts in this thread and found
No more JT's - arrgh aargh aaargh I can't believe it!
Back in the day when I was a JO I was looking after a big flight of mechanics and technicians; boys and girls of all sorts of trades. One tradesman in particular stood out. He was the best engine technician I've ever met. He was a JT but he was chronically unable to pass the Corporal exam - when faced with an exam paper he just blanked. We coached him, we gave him mocks which he sailed through but come the day he just blanked again. Meanwhile he was designing procedures which improved the effectiveness of the Spey 202 by 25%.
We couldn't get him promoted, but when I was allocated one silver jubilee medal for my flight (of 120 tradespersons) I nominated him. He retired as a 55 year old JT with a medal on his chest,
Rgds SOS
It may appear to be a small point to their Airships in their ivory towers, but to my mind, pride in the technical trades all but disappeared with the demise of the JT rank. Those who never wore the rank will simply not understand that an SAC badge with a circle does simply not engender the same spirit.
No more JT's - arrgh aargh aaargh I can't believe it!
Back in the day when I was a JO I was looking after a big flight of mechanics and technicians; boys and girls of all sorts of trades. One tradesman in particular stood out. He was the best engine technician I've ever met. He was a JT but he was chronically unable to pass the Corporal exam - when faced with an exam paper he just blanked. We coached him, we gave him mocks which he sailed through but come the day he just blanked again. Meanwhile he was designing procedures which improved the effectiveness of the Spey 202 by 25%.
We couldn't get him promoted, but when I was allocated one silver jubilee medal for my flight (of 120 tradespersons) I nominated him. He retired as a 55 year old JT with a medal on his chest,
Rgds SOS
Last edited by SOSL; 22nd May 2014 at 05:02.
