Phantom Friday
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Originally Posted by XV410
I think I can show this now
I once had to ground run a Jaguar at a Canadian Starfighter base in Germany following an engine change. The Canadians kept asking where I wanted the chains attached to. It was rather embarrassing to explain how little thrust there was on one Jag engine and that a full reheat run with just chocks would be fine.
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Toe brakes pressed and emergency brakes strapped on, 13.700lb fuel and an aircraft weight of circa 32,000lb empty so quite a bit of weight. 20,500lb thrust from the LH engine and about 12,000lb thrust on the RH engine, all it does is compress the nose leg slightly. Does burn the grass though
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Now we’re talking!
I didn’t possess a camera in those days but the experience of being on the ‘sheep dip’ at max reheat will simply never leave me. A similar feeling to being outside on a Tornado double reheat run!
I didn’t possess a camera in those days but the experience of being on the ‘sheep dip’ at max reheat will simply never leave me. A similar feeling to being outside on a Tornado double reheat run!
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Originally Posted by XV410
And to stop chipping the concrete, digging the tarmac up, burning the grass.
You may be unaware but a team have been set up to recover the Phantom that was on the burning pan at Manston, and ownership has been transferred I believe, more details here.
https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-...l-topic?page=5
https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-...l-topic?page=5
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Trumpet,
You obviously flew that "Vertical Twin Jet" that was designed as an interceptor not a fighter. Good aircraft with very limited weapons capability.
You are obviously envious of the Phantom II to write on this thread? Most of us believe that it was a true honour to have flown such a great aircraft
Remember that the F4 Phantom was one of the best Multi Role jets ever built. Only to be bettered by the F15E and some of the more recent 5th generation aircraft.
You obviously flew that "Vertical Twin Jet" that was designed as an interceptor not a fighter. Good aircraft with very limited weapons capability.
You are obviously envious of the Phantom II to write on this thread? Most of us believe that it was a true honour to have flown such a great aircraft
Remember that the F4 Phantom was one of the best Multi Role jets ever built. Only to be bettered by the F15E and some of the more recent 5th generation aircraft.
Originally Posted by Trumpet trousers
Well, if you had a real fighter with 2 engines properly located one above the other, the problem simply wouldn’t occur! 😉
But one has to admit the Lightning also had , like the F4 , a certain " je ne sais quoi ", aka "character " . However , being slightly biased , my vote has to go with Dominator-
Most of us believe that it was a true honour to have flown such a great aircraft
Remember that the F4 Phantom was one of the best Multi Role jets ever built. Only to be bettered by the F15E and some of the more recent 5th generation aircraft.
Remember that the F4 Phantom was one of the best Multi Role jets ever built. Only to be bettered by the F15E and some of the more recent 5th generation aircraft.
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Wasn't the brit version of the F4 the slowest, fuel-burningest, draggiest, ugliest version of the F4 ever built? All to give Roys-Rollce a leg-up for local content.
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Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie
Wasn't the brit version of the F4 the slowest, fuel-burningest, draggiest, ugliest version of the F4 ever built? All to give Roys-Rollce a leg-up for local content.
fuel-burningest? No, the Spey had lower SFC than the J79.
draggiest? Yes.
ugliest? No, no versions of the F-4 were/are ugly! They Spey engined ones were just 'beefier' looking!
-RP
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In response to XV410's posts above I have a reminiscence from what was then HSA at Holme on Spalding Moor. The airfield was surrounded by farmland away from the village in an area known locally as Land of Nod. We had a similar engine running bay with two ramps for the main wheels of the Phantoms and a 'venetian blind' type of jet blast deflector at either end. In the 1980's we were investigating a problem reported by the RAF - the good old days when they raised F760 which were followed up by industry investigations. The aircraft had a pair of fuel transfer pumps in tanks 4 and 6, one electric, one driven by a hydraulic motor. The electric pumps ran continuously when electrical power was available. The hydraulically driven ones ran when running in reheat, to keep the collector tanks full under the high engine fuel flowrates, or in the event of an electrical failure. However the hydraulic motors would occasionally fail for some unknown reason, possibly vibration when running in reheat or possibly a pressure fluctuation in the utility hydraulic system.
We instrumented an aircraft by fitting pressure transducers in the hydraulic motor supply lines and recording fuel contents from the aircraft gauging system. As a first step we decided we would do a sustained engine run from full internal fuel down to the level where tanks 3-7 had emptied so we knew the motors had experienced the transition from the pumps pumping fuel to pumping air. I always enjoyed an aircraft engine run so I was outside alongside the aircraft while my instrumentation colleague watched the paper spool out of the UV recorder in the cabin. After about five minutes running in full burner with two Spey 202s thundering away while swallowing around a 100 gallons of Avtur a minute, the concrete behind the aircraft began to spall and saucer sized chunks of concrete began to be hurled into the jet blast deflectors, bounced up into the air and rained down on the surrounding countryside including the road that ran around the airfield perimeter. At the end of the run I walked back into the cabin to look at the traces and the phone rang. I picked up the receiver and the irate voice of a local farmer on the line asked 'What the f*****g hell are you b*****s up to now, your'e driving my bullocks berserk' I explained that we were carrying out a special test, we had finished for the day and it was not going to be a regular event.
Subsequent analysis showed there were large hydraulic pressure spikes as the pump transitioned from pumping fuel to pumping air. Alas there was no easy solution, at least not within the MoD budget or inclination, so as far as I can remember, nothing further was done.
Walbut
We instrumented an aircraft by fitting pressure transducers in the hydraulic motor supply lines and recording fuel contents from the aircraft gauging system. As a first step we decided we would do a sustained engine run from full internal fuel down to the level where tanks 3-7 had emptied so we knew the motors had experienced the transition from the pumps pumping fuel to pumping air. I always enjoyed an aircraft engine run so I was outside alongside the aircraft while my instrumentation colleague watched the paper spool out of the UV recorder in the cabin. After about five minutes running in full burner with two Spey 202s thundering away while swallowing around a 100 gallons of Avtur a minute, the concrete behind the aircraft began to spall and saucer sized chunks of concrete began to be hurled into the jet blast deflectors, bounced up into the air and rained down on the surrounding countryside including the road that ran around the airfield perimeter. At the end of the run I walked back into the cabin to look at the traces and the phone rang. I picked up the receiver and the irate voice of a local farmer on the line asked 'What the f*****g hell are you b*****s up to now, your'e driving my bullocks berserk' I explained that we were carrying out a special test, we had finished for the day and it was not going to be a regular event.
Subsequent analysis showed there were large hydraulic pressure spikes as the pump transitioned from pumping fuel to pumping air. Alas there was no easy solution, at least not within the MoD budget or inclination, so as far as I can remember, nothing further was done.
Walbut
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Walbut: Lovely anecdote!
I remember we used to stand behind the blast deflector and watch the reheat light up. A great sight: especially at night. I don't think it would be allowed these days.
I remember we used to stand behind the blast deflector and watch the reheat light up. A great sight: especially at night. I don't think it would be allowed these days.
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Phantom Driver,
That may have been true in the late 80s but certainly to at the start. When Beauvechain first got their F16s they preferred to operate with the Wildenrath FGR2s. Although the F4 radar display was rudimentary we had good detection ranges and we knew where we were (mostly). That was where we developed MFFO to great effect. We even went to the Richthofen Wing and briefed them on the concept. Bearing in mind that the F4F only had a Pulse radar in those days.
Certainly, one did not want to mix it with an F16 with our 2 wing tanks AND Center Line Gun Pod. The AIM9L made a great difference once that became available to the RAF.
Even the F15s from Soesterberg flew on our wing on many occasions in the murky weather at low level in North Germany.
If we spotted them at low level over the North German plains , the usual call was --"F 16's ? Run , lads ! "
Certainly, one did not want to mix it with an F16 with our 2 wing tanks AND Center Line Gun Pod. The AIM9L made a great difference once that became available to the RAF.
Even the F15s from Soesterberg flew on our wing on many occasions in the murky weather at low level in North Germany.
Ah - the Land of Nod. Actually a farm approx 1km north east of H-o-S M; one of my favourite targets for rotary students to find when doing spot nav at 100ft after departure from Leconfield.
