Air Cadets grounded?
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Pause
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Last edited by ACW342; 4th Apr 2016 at 11:41. Reason: unwanted emoticon _Can't remove it
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Dumb question probably guys but I keep seeing these 'QAIC' cadets in flying suits with presentations and stuff on Twitter and things what is this? Is it some new flying scholarship? Thanks
Auster,
That link does not tell us very much about the course aim and content! In fact, I would suggest it is just "yuck - speak"!
That link does not tell us very much about the course aim and content! In fact, I would suggest it is just "yuck - speak"!
Ref: my post #2194
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...e%2086%20O.pdf
Para 5 says:
The following significant issues were identified:
a. Aircraft Document Set (ADS):
c. Lack of an effective Quality Management System.
6. Further investigation revealed that these concerns were not exhaustive and that there were a significant number of other contributing factors that led the Glider EA to state he was unable to confirm the type airworthiness of the fleets...
That's more than "a lack of accurate record-keeping"! Over the past 2 years many stones were uncovered to find many issues over and above this Duty Holder Advice Note as I understand it. Also, the Grob 109B and the Vigilant TMk1 are not identical as far as I'm aware - the Viggi has a reconfigured fuel system and undercarriage mods for a higher AUW? So I'm afraid Verdun Luck's letter is slightly off the mark in my humble opinion.
LJ
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...e%2086%20O.pdf
Para 5 says:
The following significant issues were identified:
a. Aircraft Document Set (ADS):
i. lack of ADS configuration control across glider maintenance sites.
ii. workforce carrying unauthorised maintenance and modification activities eg. Introduction of an elevator hinge pin modification that was designed and carried out by the maintenance organisation without authorisation and engineering authority input.
iii. independent inspections not being carried out on systems vital for the safety of the aircraft.
b. Progression of SI(T)s and F765s had not been managed effectively.ii. workforce carrying unauthorised maintenance and modification activities eg. Introduction of an elevator hinge pin modification that was designed and carried out by the maintenance organisation without authorisation and engineering authority input.
iii. independent inspections not being carried out on systems vital for the safety of the aircraft.
c. Lack of an effective Quality Management System.
6. Further investigation revealed that these concerns were not exhaustive and that there were a significant number of other contributing factors that led the Glider EA to state he was unable to confirm the type airworthiness of the fleets...
That's more than "a lack of accurate record-keeping"! Over the past 2 years many stones were uncovered to find many issues over and above this Duty Holder Advice Note as I understand it. Also, the Grob 109B and the Vigilant TMk1 are not identical as far as I'm aware - the Viggi has a reconfigured fuel system and undercarriage mods for a higher AUW? So I'm afraid Verdun Luck's letter is slightly off the mark in my humble opinion.
LJ
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 4th Apr 2016 at 20:16.
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Bill Macgillivray
This might be a bit more informative - pages 20-22
http://www.raf.mod.uk/aircadets/rafc...1A7728620E.pdf
This might be a bit more informative - pages 20-22
http://www.raf.mod.uk/aircadets/rafc...1A7728620E.pdf
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LJ
I note that the reference to the elevator hinge pin is in the paragraph headed a Aircraft Document Set this implies to me that the problem was one of documentation rather than the pin being unsuitable for use. It would be interesting to know if the solution to this particular issue is to retrospectively approve the mod or to re fit the original part - do you happen to know ?
paras b and c look like paperwork issues as well.
I can see that the paperwork needs to be correct to ensure airworthiness but would love to know if there was a fleet of serviceable aircraft with a paperwork problem or a fleet of problem aircraft grounded for 2 years
That is the crux of the matter and until something less sketchy is published there will continue to be speculation about the motives behind all this.
After all the sexing up of dossiers has some history.......
MP - An ex C Cat CGI from the seventies
I note that the reference to the elevator hinge pin is in the paragraph headed a Aircraft Document Set this implies to me that the problem was one of documentation rather than the pin being unsuitable for use. It would be interesting to know if the solution to this particular issue is to retrospectively approve the mod or to re fit the original part - do you happen to know ?
paras b and c look like paperwork issues as well.
I can see that the paperwork needs to be correct to ensure airworthiness but would love to know if there was a fleet of serviceable aircraft with a paperwork problem or a fleet of problem aircraft grounded for 2 years
That is the crux of the matter and until something less sketchy is published there will continue to be speculation about the motives behind all this.
After all the sexing up of dossiers has some history.......
MP - An ex C Cat CGI from the seventies
Air Cadet magazine
Hope you were impressed with the 'content' Bill.
Apart from the multitude of 'non flying',and 'virtual' activity for Cadets there were two articles that stood out; one on quality of information and the other on a statement of the current (as was ) gliding training.
The article on the Battle of Britain display at Capel le ferne mentions one
Fl Lt G Mellum 94 (but nothing more).
I assume this is in fact Sqdn Ldr Geoffrey Wellum DFC who was with 92 Sqdn at Biggin Hill during the battle;was one of the youngest pilots in the battle,went on to fly offensive sweeps over France before flying a Spitfire into Malta,and then tested Typhoons on a 'rest tour'.Does anyone at Air Cadet know anything about our history or the basic facts!!
There was then an article about 'Motivational Flight Package' at the end of which the 'instructor' who attended stated that the exercise was incredibly useful 'especially the spin awareness training which is something we do not tackle within the Air Cadet Gliding domain'!!
Just about sums up the way things are now.
Apart from the multitude of 'non flying',and 'virtual' activity for Cadets there were two articles that stood out; one on quality of information and the other on a statement of the current (as was ) gliding training.
The article on the Battle of Britain display at Capel le ferne mentions one
Fl Lt G Mellum 94 (but nothing more).
I assume this is in fact Sqdn Ldr Geoffrey Wellum DFC who was with 92 Sqdn at Biggin Hill during the battle;was one of the youngest pilots in the battle,went on to fly offensive sweeps over France before flying a Spitfire into Malta,and then tested Typhoons on a 'rest tour'.Does anyone at Air Cadet know anything about our history or the basic facts!!
There was then an article about 'Motivational Flight Package' at the end of which the 'instructor' who attended stated that the exercise was incredibly useful 'especially the spin awareness training which is something we do not tackle within the Air Cadet Gliding domain'!!
Just about sums up the way things are now.
Megapete
The 64,000 dollar question - I doubt that the subject pin was unsuitable just as I doubt that many of the Gliders were in any way unsafe to fly(before they were grounded),they are really simple a/c which spend most of their flying lives at less than 70kts.
There were probably 3 or 4 ways of tackling the problem,but that would have needed natural leaders in charge and of course would not have suited the various personal and MOD agendas.
As I have said before - the lack of communication with the VGS personnel over the last two years speaks volumes about the real aims/agendas during the 2 year 'pause' - they did not want to have to answer searching questions.
Every maintenance organisation has paperwork/procedural issues - nobody is perfect and sometimes need strong leadership and direction to keep up with modern/current ways of doing things.
It would be easy to get 'hung out to dry' if ones company had failed to keep up with up to date procedures but it was a huge failing of whoever was supposed to have oversight of the maintenance side of ACO gliders.
As I previously posted - I had heard that there might also have been a problem with some VGS Glider Hangars (not meeting MAA standards ?) but have not seen that mentioned yet !
I note that the reference to the elevator hinge pin is in the paragraph headed a Aircraft Document Set this implies to me that the problem was one of documentation rather than the pin being unsuitable for use. It would be interesting to know if the solution to this particular issue is to retrospectively approve the mod or to re fit the original part - do you happen to know ?
paras b and c look like paperwork issues as well.
I can see that the paperwork needs to be correct to ensure airworthiness but would love to know if there was a fleet of serviceable aircraft with a paperwork problem or a fleet of problem aircraft grounded for 2 years
paras b and c look like paperwork issues as well.
I can see that the paperwork needs to be correct to ensure airworthiness but would love to know if there was a fleet of serviceable aircraft with a paperwork problem or a fleet of problem aircraft grounded for 2 years
The 64,000 dollar question - I doubt that the subject pin was unsuitable just as I doubt that many of the Gliders were in any way unsafe to fly(before they were grounded),they are really simple a/c which spend most of their flying lives at less than 70kts.
There were probably 3 or 4 ways of tackling the problem,but that would have needed natural leaders in charge and of course would not have suited the various personal and MOD agendas.
As I have said before - the lack of communication with the VGS personnel over the last two years speaks volumes about the real aims/agendas during the 2 year 'pause' - they did not want to have to answer searching questions.
Every maintenance organisation has paperwork/procedural issues - nobody is perfect and sometimes need strong leadership and direction to keep up with modern/current ways of doing things.
It would be easy to get 'hung out to dry' if ones company had failed to keep up with up to date procedures but it was a huge failing of whoever was supposed to have oversight of the maintenance side of ACO gliders.
As I previously posted - I had heard that there might also have been a problem with some VGS Glider Hangars (not meeting MAA standards ?) but have not seen that mentioned yet !
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I still think the MGSP maintenance regime was best. It offered a documented, rolling Minor/Major maintenance programme, minor repairs done on site by qualified tradesmen overseen by qualified experienced supervisors, major repairs removed from site and returned to the main servicing site for completion or deep servicing and spare airframes which could be swapped out if required to minimise the impact on the VGS. And an independent audit programme...................done by the Central function.
Perfect................... So lets 'bin' that.
Arc
Perfect................... So lets 'bin' that.
Arc
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Now the closing date of the 31st March has passed, It would be interesting to find out the results of the forms that had to be filled out by all staff affected by the cull......
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MGSP North
Arc
I lived at Dishforth, home of MGSP North, just two doors down from the SNCO i/c. Great bunch of professional SERVICE engineers
I lived at Dishforth, home of MGSP North, just two doors down from the SNCO i/c. Great bunch of professional SERVICE engineers
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The RAF Dishforth based MGSP were certainly in residence in the mid '70's /early '80's.
One of the MGSP SNCO's was an accomplished poacher. His wife worked in the Dishforth feeder and provided us with some 'interesting' lunches that the RAF Leeming catering office knew nothing about.
One of the MGSP SNCO's was an accomplished poacher. His wife worked in the Dishforth feeder and provided us with some 'interesting' lunches that the RAF Leeming catering office knew nothing about.
Last edited by taxydual; 5th Apr 2016 at 20:06. Reason: changed MGSF to MGSP (finger trouble)
MGSP
The strength of the MGSP were they were a travelling 'team' complete with a Bedford lorry load of spares and in-house duplicate inspections.
They could repair the classic 'wheel box' incidents on-site and left your fleet looking spick and span and very fit for for purpose.
The canvas hangars also benefited from their attention and were kept in good condition.
The system was perfect, and anything requiring a 'duplicate' completed at the time.
If one happened to go to the school midweek whilst they were in attendance it was quite a shock to see the machines in bits and on trestles getting expert attention.
Come friday evening they were all back in service and duly signed off,or a replacement in place.
But then this was a truly quality service, provided by highly trained and motivated staff usually led by a Chief Tech;i do not recall a time when the w-end flyers were let down by this system. Sadly in most cases we never met them but their reputation was of the highest order.
And Why oh Why the term 'beloved' did not exist, they were simply a LEGEND!
They could repair the classic 'wheel box' incidents on-site and left your fleet looking spick and span and very fit for for purpose.
The canvas hangars also benefited from their attention and were kept in good condition.
The system was perfect, and anything requiring a 'duplicate' completed at the time.
If one happened to go to the school midweek whilst they were in attendance it was quite a shock to see the machines in bits and on trestles getting expert attention.
Come friday evening they were all back in service and duly signed off,or a replacement in place.
But then this was a truly quality service, provided by highly trained and motivated staff usually led by a Chief Tech;i do not recall a time when the w-end flyers were let down by this system. Sadly in most cases we never met them but their reputation was of the highest order.
And Why oh Why the term 'beloved' did not exist, they were simply a LEGEND!
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Pobjoy. As per my question to Arc. When was this utopian engineering era
QUOTE=POBJOY;9334478]The strength of the MGSP were they were a travelling 'team' complete with a Bedford lorry load of spares and in-house duplicate inspections.
They could repair the classic 'wheel box' incidents on-site and left your fleet looking spick and span and very fit for for purpose.
The canvas hangars also benefited from their attention and were kept in good condition.
The system was perfect, and anything requiring a 'duplicate' completed at the time.
If one happened to go to the school midweek whilst they were in attendance it was quite a shock to see the machines in bits and on trestles getting expert attention.
Come friday evening they were all back in service and duly signed off,or a replacement in place.
But then this was a truly quality service, provided by highly trained and motivated staff usually led by a Chief Tech;i do not recall a time when the w-end flyers were let down by this system. Sadly in most cases we never met them but their reputation was of the highest order.
And Why oh Why the term 'beloved' did not exist, they were simply a LEGEND![/QUOTE]
QUOTE=POBJOY;9334478]The strength of the MGSP were they were a travelling 'team' complete with a Bedford lorry load of spares and in-house duplicate inspections.
They could repair the classic 'wheel box' incidents on-site and left your fleet looking spick and span and very fit for for purpose.
The canvas hangars also benefited from their attention and were kept in good condition.
The system was perfect, and anything requiring a 'duplicate' completed at the time.
If one happened to go to the school midweek whilst they were in attendance it was quite a shock to see the machines in bits and on trestles getting expert attention.
Come friday evening they were all back in service and duly signed off,or a replacement in place.
But then this was a truly quality service, provided by highly trained and motivated staff usually led by a Chief Tech;i do not recall a time when the w-end flyers were let down by this system. Sadly in most cases we never met them but their reputation was of the highest order.
And Why oh Why the term 'beloved' did not exist, they were simply a LEGEND![/QUOTE]