Air Cadets grounded?
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Pobjoy
Your summation of the situation is very near the truth, I suspect that some in the RAF & MoD have overestimated the technical competence of the current primary contractor and been misled by this lack of ability to first organise and second maintain/fix the aircraft as has been demonstrated over the past years.
The primary contractor ( and staff ) are now feeling vulnerable as the support contract for the next ten years or so is up for renewal at the end of the year so to ensure a smooth transition this will have to be decided by the late summer.
The big question is will the team from the current contractor man up and work hard to turn out servicable aircraft ( in cooperation with a potential rival for the support contract ) and show themselfs deserving of the support contract or will they see this as an opportunity to try and rubish the performance of the opposition by being obstructive.
The support contract is the big prize in all of this and only time will tell if the next nine months of this glider recovery will be a genuine cooperative effort to get the cadets back into the air at best speed or a game of political dirty tricks with the only aim to secure the ten year support contract.
The primary contractor ( and staff ) are now feeling vulnerable as the support contract for the next ten years or so is up for renewal at the end of the year so to ensure a smooth transition this will have to be decided by the late summer.
The big question is will the team from the current contractor man up and work hard to turn out servicable aircraft ( in cooperation with a potential rival for the support contract ) and show themselfs deserving of the support contract or will they see this as an opportunity to try and rubish the performance of the opposition by being obstructive.
The support contract is the big prize in all of this and only time will tell if the next nine months of this glider recovery will be a genuine cooperative effort to get the cadets back into the air at best speed or a game of political dirty tricks with the only aim to secure the ten year support contract.
Last edited by A and C; 7th Jan 2016 at 07:38.
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POBJOY,
I have some knowledge of the organisation, and its HQ, to which you refer (27 years in the RAF and then two years as a subbie to said organisation in and around 2008).
I highly doubt this is all down to the incompetence of individuals. Rather I suspect it is "structural" in nature. Public sector bodies, whoever they are, wherever they are, just don't do well at this sort of thing - its the nature of the beast. The military writ large have been ****ing up procurement for ever. Just recently circa 3.5 billion of tax payers wonga flushed down the lavvie for the MRA4, and that's just the tip of pretty monster iceberg.
Nor is it just the military...I live near Edinburgh a city that could not put up a building or lay a couple of miles of tram tracks without lawsuits, humongous delays and massive (10X FFS!) budget overuns.
It is what it is buddy. That's the nature of the country we live in. Blaming people is the easy (and not very nice) option.
I have some knowledge of the organisation, and its HQ, to which you refer (27 years in the RAF and then two years as a subbie to said organisation in and around 2008).
I highly doubt this is all down to the incompetence of individuals. Rather I suspect it is "structural" in nature. Public sector bodies, whoever they are, wherever they are, just don't do well at this sort of thing - its the nature of the beast. The military writ large have been ****ing up procurement for ever. Just recently circa 3.5 billion of tax payers wonga flushed down the lavvie for the MRA4, and that's just the tip of pretty monster iceberg.
Nor is it just the military...I live near Edinburgh a city that could not put up a building or lay a couple of miles of tram tracks without lawsuits, humongous delays and massive (10X FFS!) budget overuns.
It is what it is buddy. That's the nature of the country we live in. Blaming people is the easy (and not very nice) option.
someone is to blame.
O F O
Sorry O F O but why should we not accept the fact that it is the people in the system that makes it (or otherwise) work.
I am slowly winding down after decades in commercial aviation (Plus the ATC) and public transport operations.
Regulations for both flying and the tech side have increased many fold over the years but the private sector has to 'make it happen' or get out of the business.
The Air Force on the other hand has lost the plot on seeing the need for people who actually know about aircraft and systems and to have to shut down a fleet of gliders just shows how bad it is. You can not promote 'fancy websites' and 'hype' unless the goods are delivered.
Aviation is very much about competent 'leadership' and setting sensible attainable standards both tech and flying wise. Once you lose that basic ability then there is no point in trying to substitute paperwork as a replacement for knowledge and competence.
There are some very capable people in the RAF/MOD (some post on here) however a tech culture has been replaced by a system that promotes increasing record keeping and yet moves further away from the ability to actually maintain aircraft to their own requirements.Unless there is change then the future does not look very bright.
Sorry O F O but why should we not accept the fact that it is the people in the system that makes it (or otherwise) work.
I am slowly winding down after decades in commercial aviation (Plus the ATC) and public transport operations.
Regulations for both flying and the tech side have increased many fold over the years but the private sector has to 'make it happen' or get out of the business.
The Air Force on the other hand has lost the plot on seeing the need for people who actually know about aircraft and systems and to have to shut down a fleet of gliders just shows how bad it is. You can not promote 'fancy websites' and 'hype' unless the goods are delivered.
Aviation is very much about competent 'leadership' and setting sensible attainable standards both tech and flying wise. Once you lose that basic ability then there is no point in trying to substitute paperwork as a replacement for knowledge and competence.
There are some very capable people in the RAF/MOD (some post on here) however a tech culture has been replaced by a system that promotes increasing record keeping and yet moves further away from the ability to actually maintain aircraft to their own requirements.Unless there is change then the future does not look very bright.
TOFO,
It's unfair to blame the whole country. It's only in the public sector where people get to f*ck up in spades with absolutely no accountability.
Having worked for 20 years in the the private sector, after my 28 years in the RAF, I can vouch that people who demonstrably get it all wrong where there is commercial pressure are out on their @rses pretty quickly. And rightly so!
It's unfair to blame the whole country. It's only in the public sector where people get to f*ck up in spades with absolutely no accountability.
Having worked for 20 years in the the private sector, after my 28 years in the RAF, I can vouch that people who demonstrably get it all wrong where there is commercial pressure are out on their @rses pretty quickly. And rightly so!
TOFO, the difference between MOD incompetence and Edinburgh Council incompetence is that the latter can be sacked by those they represent whereas the former cannot. Despite clear evidence given to the Haddon-Cave and Lord Philip reviews of VSOs' incompetence, regulatory subversion, malevolent persecution of subordinates, and covering up (which continues) attacks on UK Military Airworthiness provision and maintenance, no-one has been charged let alone prosecuted.
The Air Cadets are merely the latest victims of this scandal which will continue until that evidence is acted upon and action taken to prevent a recurrence. That will entail making the MAA and the MilAAIB independent of the MOD and of each other.
The Air Cadets are merely the latest victims of this scandal which will continue until that evidence is acted upon and action taken to prevent a recurrence. That will entail making the MAA and the MilAAIB independent of the MOD and of each other.
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Once you lose that basic ability then there is no point in trying to substitute paperwork as a replacement for knowledge and competence.
This is so true, at one time the Chief Engineer of a mid-sized GA maintenance company would have time to wander around the hangar and have an hour to hour knowlage of what was going on and sometimes get his hands dirty physically working on aircraft.............. Now it is all about shuffling paper.
The result of this is a loss of quality control at the front line of maintenance.
Once you lose that basic ability then there is no point in trying to substitute paperwork as a replacement for knowledge and competence.
This is so true, at one time the Chief Engineer of a mid-sized GA maintenance company would have time to wander around the hangar and have an hour to hour knowlage of what was going on and sometimes get his hands dirty physically working on aircraft.............. Now it is all about shuffling paper.
The result of this is a loss of quality control at the front line of maintenance.
A and C, it isn't so much that experienced qualified engineers are shuffling paper, it is more the case that the experienced qualified engineers (at least those who held responsibilities for UK Military Airworthiness) were got rid of (as they would not willingly suborn the regulations) and replaced by compliant non-engineers with little or no knowledge of the regulations which were thus soon forgotten, but who do have particular skills in shuffling paper.
As I alluded to previously - also in industry I have seen several instances of where a certain individual is given a certain job (who is quite obviously a 'hatchet man' !).He then does untold damage to the organisation before being 'let go',but the point is that sometimes certain people are put into post to 'do a job' - that person may or may not realise what is going on depending how dumb they are LOL
I would also say that the correct key individuals can make a huge difference to the organisation as a whole - especially where flying/engineering is involved.
As I posted previously - whatever the key reasons are for this debacle - it has been very convenient for MOD at this time !
I would also say that the correct key individuals can make a huge difference to the organisation as a whole - especially where flying/engineering is involved.
As I posted previously - whatever the key reasons are for this debacle - it has been very convenient for MOD at this time !
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POBJOY and 1.3 Stall,
Pretty much agree with you both. POBJOY actually makes my point for me
That's a structural issue in my book, a people issue in yours. We are debating what the academics call "metaphysical" issues. In short, I agree with you as regards outcomes, I disagree somewhat over causal factors. We both seem agree there are a lot of good people doing the job as well as the inevitable oxygen thiefs to be found in all walks of life. No matter how good you are and what office you hold, you cannot always make the difference you would like.
(note:I have absolutely no regard - or respect - for posters who suggest you should therefore walk out on your job - clearly they do not have children to feed or mortgages to pay)
We agree 100%. In fact I almost posted this. Unfortunately, or not, the public sector is very much part of our society and it is not going anywhere.
Pretty much agree with you both. POBJOY actually makes my point for me
however a tech culture has been replaced by a system that promotes increasing record keeping and yet moves further away from the ability to actually maintain aircraft to their own requirements.
(note:I have absolutely no regard - or respect - for posters who suggest you should therefore walk out on your job - clearly they do not have children to feed or mortgages to pay)
It's unfair to blame the whole country. It's only in the public sector where people get to f*ck up in spades with absolutely no accountability.
It's unfair to blame the whole country. It's only in the public sector where people get to f*ck up in spades with absolutely no accountability.
Two issues that need sorting
In the case of our present ATC gliding situation there are two issues that need attention.
The basic Tech ability of the system that actually provides the framework and equipment,and also the leadership at the helm of the flying operation.
The failure of the 'operational' part goes back some time but is possible to improve.
The lack of competent leadership on the flying side meant the whole system collapsed in a way that was a huge disgrace in the history of the schools fine traditions. The only part of the organisation that can hold its head up is the volunteer element of the schools that had a record second to none and has maintained a stance of trying to hold their operations together despite the appalling way they have been treated from Syerston.
Regardless what happens in the future the record will show that the flying side of ATC gliding has maintained a service and standards that are a credit to the ATC organisation and deserve a better system and leader to go into its anniversary year.
The basic Tech ability of the system that actually provides the framework and equipment,and also the leadership at the helm of the flying operation.
The failure of the 'operational' part goes back some time but is possible to improve.
The lack of competent leadership on the flying side meant the whole system collapsed in a way that was a huge disgrace in the history of the schools fine traditions. The only part of the organisation that can hold its head up is the volunteer element of the schools that had a record second to none and has maintained a stance of trying to hold their operations together despite the appalling way they have been treated from Syerston.
Regardless what happens in the future the record will show that the flying side of ATC gliding has maintained a service and standards that are a credit to the ATC organisation and deserve a better system and leader to go into its anniversary year.
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Hi POBJOY
Are you inferring that the Trappers are also complicit when you use the the term 'Syerston' or just the senior management and the tech staffs ??
Do you feel the Trapper staff should have stepped in and raised the issues or is it out of their remit ?.
I only ask because I was always told that 'nothing is out of our remit' whenever I had the temerity to ask what their job actually covered.......
Arc
Are you inferring that the Trappers are also complicit when you use the the term 'Syerston' or just the senior management and the tech staffs ??
Do you feel the Trapper staff should have stepped in and raised the issues or is it out of their remit ?.
I only ask because I was always told that 'nothing is out of our remit' whenever I had the temerity to ask what their job actually covered.......
Arc
Syerston
ARC
I think the current 'leadership' at Syerston has to take a fair slice of the responsibility for the way the present situation has 'developed' and how the organisation has not been best served with the lack of respect dealt out to the schools.
As suggested before the schools record of actually 'doing the job' with w-end staff having to adjust to an ever increasing burden of poor support shows how little the 'boss' knew about the organisation or its capability.
The schools were competent to the point that their input should have been used before the grounding order occurred.
The schools knew their aircraft and staff capabilities and with a 'limited' reduction in 'first solo' flights could have continued operating whilst 'inspections' were arranged.
No evidence has been offered that the fleet was in actual danger of 'failures' and in practice (and has been well debated) it is the total lack of hands on tech expertise at the top that led to the dramatic stop of flying.
The management failure in all this has dealt a mortal blow to the continuity and ongoing experience level in the organisation and the staff cadet input effectively finished. Perhaps it was a way to 'reorganise' the operation, but in practice they have destroyed it.
I think the current 'leadership' at Syerston has to take a fair slice of the responsibility for the way the present situation has 'developed' and how the organisation has not been best served with the lack of respect dealt out to the schools.
As suggested before the schools record of actually 'doing the job' with w-end staff having to adjust to an ever increasing burden of poor support shows how little the 'boss' knew about the organisation or its capability.
The schools were competent to the point that their input should have been used before the grounding order occurred.
The schools knew their aircraft and staff capabilities and with a 'limited' reduction in 'first solo' flights could have continued operating whilst 'inspections' were arranged.
No evidence has been offered that the fleet was in actual danger of 'failures' and in practice (and has been well debated) it is the total lack of hands on tech expertise at the top that led to the dramatic stop of flying.
The management failure in all this has dealt a mortal blow to the continuity and ongoing experience level in the organisation and the staff cadet input effectively finished. Perhaps it was a way to 'reorganise' the operation, but in practice they have destroyed it.
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The end justifies the means
Imagine a desired strategic aim that stated: Post-Haddon-Cave and the loss of three cadets, the MOD can not have the PR risk of civilian volunteers flying RAF-associated young people in Mil Reg aircraft leading to a fatality and the enactment of loss of military authority over the MOD aircraft fleet. How would you achieve that effect?
1. Immediate stop to VGS flying - of course fully justified by the safety case
2. Greatly reduce the fleet to remove the need for volunteers
3. Re-brigade the schools to concentrate on the aircraft that look the least like military aircraft
I think throughout the last couple of years, maintenance of the aim has been very good and the desired end state has almost been achieved. I feel the real challenge will be filling the instructor seats for point 2, but the end justifies the means. Not flying achieves the aim, after all.
I think we are underestimating the leadership, vision and motivation manifest in the MOD. Why on earth would they want VGS staff, RAF GSA or the BGA input?
1. Immediate stop to VGS flying - of course fully justified by the safety case
2. Greatly reduce the fleet to remove the need for volunteers
3. Re-brigade the schools to concentrate on the aircraft that look the least like military aircraft
I think throughout the last couple of years, maintenance of the aim has been very good and the desired end state has almost been achieved. I feel the real challenge will be filling the instructor seats for point 2, but the end justifies the means. Not flying achieves the aim, after all.
I think we are underestimating the leadership, vision and motivation manifest in the MOD. Why on earth would they want VGS staff, RAF GSA or the BGA input?
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the end justifies the means
I fear your post might be close to the truth/reality of where we are with cadet flying and it might even make sense to many within the MOD bubble.
I then wrote a few ideas and concluded I was delusional and deleted it. The cadet world a much diminished and frankly boring place compared to the 1970s.
I then wrote a few ideas and concluded I was delusional and deleted it. The cadet world a much diminished and frankly boring place compared to the 1970s.
No news frustrations!!
I share the frustrations of the majority of posters on this thread as to how long the "powers that be" can sit on their hands in trying to sort this bebacle out. It should not be rocket science!!
Without ploughing through this lengthy thread looking for the reason as to why it could not be done I still think the answer is to put these gliders/motor gliders on the civil register. The VGS instructors could all be recategorised in accordance with the BGA instructor ratings. They may need to add an intermediate category to cover circuit instruction only
The equipment would then have some value in the future if some of the kit became surplus to requirements, without potential new owners having to jump through the hoops of transferring the current aircraft to civil registration. (They may need to convert the new winches back to gas though
)
Without ploughing through this lengthy thread looking for the reason as to why it could not be done I still think the answer is to put these gliders/motor gliders on the civil register. The VGS instructors could all be recategorised in accordance with the BGA instructor ratings. They may need to add an intermediate category to cover circuit instruction only
The equipment would then have some value in the future if some of the kit became surplus to requirements, without potential new owners having to jump through the hoops of transferring the current aircraft to civil registration. (They may need to convert the new winches back to gas though
)
Last edited by Freda Checks; 8th Jan 2016 at 15:13.
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There will be just as much pain transferring the gliders to the civil register. The paperwork for each glider will have to be carefully checked against the glider, and the glider against the paperwork to make sure all ADs have been complied with and all repairs are correctly documented and executed. In other words just as much work as they need to fly again on the military register.
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The end justifies the means
Yes I think the conspiracy theory is quite attractive really, in today's risk averse politically correct atmosphere. Unfortunately though , ( and disappointingly for those who regarded VR(T) and CGI instructors as slightly sub standard not quite up to silver wing master race standard ) the last three Cadets to perish in an RAF aircraft accident were being conveyed therein by fully qualified RAF pilots.
I think that notwithstanding the dreadful and catastrophic "pause" and the absolutely disgraceful lack of communication and regard for ALL the long serving, extremely competent army of volunteer staff, there is not one shred of evidence to connect them with ANY failure, technical, flying or Admin that has caused any part of the current shambles.
I absolutely deprecate the appalling treatment of such a loyal workforce, - and cannot help comparing and contrasting them, in the wake of the New Years Honours list where so many were "honoured" merely for doing the job that they were very highly paid to do, and some were elevated for little more than writing a cheque in favour of a political party. How many generously donated man hours were given collectively per annum in the service of VGS ?
Yes, ok we did enjoy it and the fruits of our labours remember those who set them on their road to success and some to fame in aviation careers. Just a shame that some of the hierarchy seem to have completely forgotten their hugely understated, un-remunerated workforce.
Maybe the RAF will soon have an entry in the Guinness Book of records for the longest pause in British history ! ( Dictionary : Pause noun, interval of inaction or silence esp due to hesitation ; temporary stop ). It certainly is text book as it has inaction, interval and silence !.
I think that notwithstanding the dreadful and catastrophic "pause" and the absolutely disgraceful lack of communication and regard for ALL the long serving, extremely competent army of volunteer staff, there is not one shred of evidence to connect them with ANY failure, technical, flying or Admin that has caused any part of the current shambles.
I absolutely deprecate the appalling treatment of such a loyal workforce, - and cannot help comparing and contrasting them, in the wake of the New Years Honours list where so many were "honoured" merely for doing the job that they were very highly paid to do, and some were elevated for little more than writing a cheque in favour of a political party. How many generously donated man hours were given collectively per annum in the service of VGS ?
Yes, ok we did enjoy it and the fruits of our labours remember those who set them on their road to success and some to fame in aviation careers. Just a shame that some of the hierarchy seem to have completely forgotten their hugely understated, un-remunerated workforce.
Maybe the RAF will soon have an entry in the Guinness Book of records for the longest pause in British history ! ( Dictionary : Pause noun, interval of inaction or silence esp due to hesitation ; temporary stop ). It certainly is text book as it has inaction, interval and silence !.
Well done the Volunteers
Well said Enigma, you echo my thoughts of an earlier post, but more succinctly.
Cats, if there is pain associated with getting the fleet flying again (and it seems to be the same pain whether we keep the gliders on the military register or the civil register) it seems somewhat short sighted to choose the status quo. I understand that there are number of civil registered aircraft (albeit with roundels) that are in service with the RAF at present.
Cats, if there is pain associated with getting the fleet flying again (and it seems to be the same pain whether we keep the gliders on the military register or the civil register) it seems somewhat short sighted to choose the status quo. I understand that there are number of civil registered aircraft (albeit with roundels) that are in service with the RAF at present.
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FREDA
At this point I see little advantage in moving the Vikings to the civil register simply because of all the spending that has been made to keep them on the military register.
If the decision had been made to change at the start of the pause some savings could have been made and the aircraft retuned to service a little more quickly, as the recovery ramps up from a paperwork setting up exercise to an aircraft fixing one industry capacity will become the limiting factor to the speed of recovery.
The technical reasons for this have been well documented above, from the flying side BGA qualifications are not good enough as these are intended for private flying, the VGS is in civil terms an operation requiring an AOC and just like any commercial operation it requires its pilots to hold commercial pilot qualifications. ( please don't see this as a criticism of the flying abilitys of BGA instructors it is a paperwork issue )
If the decision had been made to change at the start of the pause some savings could have been made and the aircraft retuned to service a little more quickly, as the recovery ramps up from a paperwork setting up exercise to an aircraft fixing one industry capacity will become the limiting factor to the speed of recovery.
The technical reasons for this have been well documented above, from the flying side BGA qualifications are not good enough as these are intended for private flying, the VGS is in civil terms an operation requiring an AOC and just like any commercial operation it requires its pilots to hold commercial pilot qualifications. ( please don't see this as a criticism of the flying abilitys of BGA instructors it is a paperwork issue )