Air Cadets grounded?
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Halton was long enough for ACO winch operations when the VGS were equipped with winch-launched gliders. It is also long enough for RAFGSA winch operations with gliders that are bigger than the Grob 103. Therefore it is clearly long enough for ACO winch-launch operations.
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#1026 (permalink) Leon Jabachjabicz
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By the way, this was my prediction on the SDSR Rumour thread:
Quote:
Seeing as the Air Cadet Gliding Organisations are in 'rag order' then I suggest the following might play out. The loss of the Vigilant due to cost of rectification and upgraded engine requirements, which leads to a loss of VGS (and closure of airfields) at:
Abingdon Airfield, Dalton Barracks (this would be the last public funded flying so could see the airfield close)
Arbroath Airfield, RMB Condor (this would be the last public funded flying so could see the airfield close)
Chivenor Airfield, RMB Chivenor (ties in with the loss of SAR so airfield will shut)
RAF Cosford (airfield stays open as UAS/AEF continues)
RAF Halton (airfield stays open as JSAT(G) and Recruit AEF continues)
RAF Henlow (this would be the last public funded flying so could see the airfield close)
RAF Honington (this would be the last public funded flying so could see the airfield close)
Kinloss Airfield, Kinloss Barracks (remains open as crash div for Lossiemouth)
RAF Linton on Ouse (already due for closure under MFTS)
RAF Little Rissington (this would be the last public funded flying so could see the airfield close)
Newtonards Airfield (Vigilants will go from civvy airfield)
RAF Odiham (airfield stays open for JHC activity)
RAF St Athan (recently announced closure as RAF Cosford becomes the centre of RAF tech trg)
Swansea Airport (Vigilants will go from civvy airport)
RAF Topcliffe, Allanbrooke Barracks (this would be the last public funded flying so could see the airfield close)
RAF Tern Hill (airfield stays open for DHFS activities)
RAF Woodvale (airfield stays open for UAS/AEF)
However, RAF Kenley, MDP Wethersfield, RNAS Predannack and RAF Kirknewton currently operate the Viking and are outwith any day to day full-time support from the military. So this could see the Viking introduced at RAF Cosford, RAF Halton, Kinloss, RAF Odiham, RAF Woodvale, RAF Topcliffe and RAF Tern Hill where DIO currently has to support an airfield with other on-going public funded flying.
So savings made through the closure of airfields at:
Abingdon, Arbroath (RMB Condor), RMB Chivenor, RAF Henlow, RAF Honington, RAF Little Rissington, RAF Kenley, RAF Topcliffe, MDP Wethersfield and RAF Kirknewton. The sale of this land could see a nice return of revenue to the Treasury. The sale of St Athan and RAF Linton on Ouse has already been announced.
Future Air Cadet gliding could be available at:
RAF Cosford
RAF Halton
Hullavington Airfield, Buckley Barracks
Kinloss Airfield, Kinloss Barracks
RAF Odiham
RNAS Predannack or RMB Chivenor (TBD)
RAF Syerston (HQ 2FTS)
RAF Tern Hill
Upavon Airfield, Trenchard Lines
RAF Woodvale
With the possibility of opening up Air Cadet gliding on the following sites:
RAF Leuchars (Waterloo Barracks - currently Lossie weather div and home of UAS/AEF and fills loss of Kirknewton)
RAF Leeming (capacity for weekend gliding and fills loss of Linton and Topcliffe)
RAF St Athan - keep an enclave for South Wales for VGS/UAS/AEF
So that's 13 locations delivering gliding with ~80 Vikings. So approximately 4 per VGS and always around 15-20 in servicing.
Then, with MFTS coming on line, then the excess Tutors could go to the AEFs to offer extra flying to the increased numbers of the Air Cadets.
Right, that's the Air Cadets sorted out...
...now for the rest.
I'm hearing rumours on a need to re-open the WSO pipeline and an increase in WSOps plus more pilots (FJ and ME with the possibility of crossing over some RW pilots) and that means the following is most likely coming:
- More Reapers under Project SCAVENGER
- Run on of the Tornado GR4 awaiting delivery of some more Typhoons
- A maritime patrol aircraft (P8 or other)
- MFTS expansion to deliver increased manpower (with more QFIs needed)
- Increase in techies going through RAF Cosford (which is why DCTT Lyneham has ceased)
I think we will see the reduction of Field Sqns in the RAF Regt. I would hope we see Admin branches (Scribbly, Trg and PEd) thinned dwon into FTRS and Civil Service posts.
I was wrong about Hullavington by the looks of it but let's see if I'm right this coming week...
Join Date: May 2000
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By the way, this was my prediction on the SDSR Rumour thread:
Quote:
Seeing as the Air Cadet Gliding Organisations are in 'rag order' then I suggest the following might play out. The loss of the Vigilant due to cost of rectification and upgraded engine requirements, which leads to a loss of VGS (and closure of airfields) at:
Abingdon Airfield, Dalton Barracks (this would be the last public funded flying so could see the airfield close)
Arbroath Airfield, RMB Condor (this would be the last public funded flying so could see the airfield close)
Chivenor Airfield, RMB Chivenor (ties in with the loss of SAR so airfield will shut)
RAF Cosford (airfield stays open as UAS/AEF continues)
RAF Halton (airfield stays open as JSAT(G) and Recruit AEF continues)
RAF Henlow (this would be the last public funded flying so could see the airfield close)
RAF Honington (this would be the last public funded flying so could see the airfield close)
Kinloss Airfield, Kinloss Barracks (remains open as crash div for Lossiemouth)
RAF Linton on Ouse (already due for closure under MFTS)
RAF Little Rissington (this would be the last public funded flying so could see the airfield close)
Newtonards Airfield (Vigilants will go from civvy airfield)
RAF Odiham (airfield stays open for JHC activity)
RAF St Athan (recently announced closure as RAF Cosford becomes the centre of RAF tech trg)
Swansea Airport (Vigilants will go from civvy airport)
RAF Topcliffe, Allanbrooke Barracks (this would be the last public funded flying so could see the airfield close)
RAF Tern Hill (airfield stays open for DHFS activities)
RAF Woodvale (airfield stays open for UAS/AEF)
However, RAF Kenley, MDP Wethersfield, RNAS Predannack and RAF Kirknewton currently operate the Viking and are outwith any day to day full-time support from the military. So this could see the Viking introduced at RAF Cosford, RAF Halton, Kinloss, RAF Odiham, RAF Woodvale, RAF Topcliffe and RAF Tern Hill where DIO currently has to support an airfield with other on-going public funded flying.
So savings made through the closure of airfields at:
Abingdon, Arbroath (RMB Condor), RMB Chivenor, RAF Henlow, RAF Honington, RAF Little Rissington, RAF Kenley, RAF Topcliffe, MDP Wethersfield and RAF Kirknewton. The sale of this land could see a nice return of revenue to the Treasury. The sale of St Athan and RAF Linton on Ouse has already been announced.
Future Air Cadet gliding could be available at:
RAF Cosford
RAF Halton
Hullavington Airfield, Buckley Barracks
Kinloss Airfield, Kinloss Barracks
RAF Odiham
RNAS Predannack or RMB Chivenor (TBD)
RAF Syerston (HQ 2FTS)
RAF Tern Hill
Upavon Airfield, Trenchard Lines
RAF Woodvale
With the possibility of opening up Air Cadet gliding on the following sites:
RAF Leuchars (Waterloo Barracks - currently Lossie weather div and home of UAS/AEF and fills loss of Kirknewton)
RAF Leeming (capacity for weekend gliding and fills loss of Linton and Topcliffe)
RAF St Athan - keep an enclave for South Wales for VGS/UAS/AEF
So that's 13 locations delivering gliding with ~80 Vikings. So approximately 4 per VGS and always around 15-20 in servicing.
Then, with MFTS coming on line, then the excess Tutors could go to the AEFs to offer extra flying to the increased numbers of the Air Cadets.
Right, that's the Air Cadets sorted out...
...now for the rest.
I'm hearing rumours on a need to re-open the WSO pipeline and an increase in WSOps plus more pilots (FJ and ME with the possibility of crossing over some RW pilots) and that means the following is most likely coming:
- More Reapers under Project SCAVENGER
- Run on of the Tornado GR4 awaiting delivery of some more Typhoons
- A maritime patrol aircraft (P8 or other)
- MFTS expansion to deliver increased manpower (with more QFIs needed)
- Increase in techies going through RAF Cosford (which is why DCTT Lyneham has ceased)
I think we will see the reduction of Field Sqns in the RAF Regt. I would hope we see Admin branches (Scribbly, Trg and PEd) thinned dwon into FTRS and Civil Service posts.
I was wrong about Hullavington by the looks of it but let's see if I'm right this coming week...
Newtownards must be the most cost effective, no airfield maintenance costs, building provided and maintained by RFCA NI, our AEF to Woodvale is now a total joke ,reduced from 24 a visit to six and for that six it costs around £1000 a time to get them over with usually no one getting to fly . England is not the only place the ATC exists!
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Re the AMF glider trailer, ISTR they were procured by the ACO with no reference to proper MT procurement procedure, I was I/C MTMS at Newton at the time and when the first one arrived Syerston gave it to us and said get it registered. Support Cmd played along and did the business (they were not happy, but did). The adjustable tow hitch was a problem from day one, the tie downs inside always gave trouble, one glider was making its escape thru the back doors on the A1, when the crew were overtaken by another RAF vehicle and waved down.
The damage to the trailer in the advert was not the usual damage, failing to tighten the joints on the intermediate strut was more usual.
The other two wheeled AMF trailer was a nightmare, required careful load distribution to stop it snaking. The trailers "designer" AF himself came up to demonstrate its stability and frightened himself fa*Tless when towing behind a LWB LR. Had to issue sandbags to the ACCGS to ballast them.
The damage to the trailer in the advert was not the usual damage, failing to tighten the joints on the intermediate strut was more usual.
The other two wheeled AMF trailer was a nightmare, required careful load distribution to stop it snaking. The trailers "designer" AF himself came up to demonstrate its stability and frightened himself fa*Tless when towing behind a LWB LR. Had to issue sandbags to the ACCGS to ballast them.
1200m too short !!
Shade under (similar Kenley) but no width and well used by fixed wing club and GSA.
Prob not ideal due 'sharing' situation.
Kenley's length assisted by being on a 'high spot' in its area and 'catching the wind';which kept the barges in on days that would help the Vik.
Prob not ideal due 'sharing' situation.
Kenley's length assisted by being on a 'high spot' in its area and 'catching the wind';which kept the barges in on days that would help the Vik.
1200m
If a 1200m run at Halton is too short then however did we cope with the Viking at an airfield north of the border with it's runs measuring a smidge under 1000m.
Portmoak was shorter still, but still very much usable.
Portmoak was shorter still, but still very much usable.
Messenger duly shot - hey, people, this is only my predictiom of what will be the outcome of this week's SDSR. who knows what will actually play out?
LJ
PS. 1200m is plenty. Don't forget that ACO activity would get priority over service flying clubs at weekends as well - they are encroachments using spare capacity on the defence estate.
LJ
PS. 1200m is plenty. Don't forget that ACO activity would get priority over service flying clubs at weekends as well - they are encroachments using spare capacity on the defence estate.
Targets
Hey LJ we have to keep our eye in for when the real targets bother to show themselves. (If they ever do).Meanwhile at Syerston a very large crystal ball has arrived for forecasting future ATC requirements.It is parked in its own space in the workshops for peace and quiet.
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I can't envisage Cardiff Airport allowing the return of winch-launch gliders to St Athan. They were pulled from there in the early 2000s. They are being precious enough with plans to build up GA activity there and they're a frequent pain in UWAS's posterior these days.
If cadets return to string-flinging only, then acquiring and maintaining appropriate real estate will be a big problem and many cadets will will face very, very long trips to get there and that would likely cause fatigue problems for weekend courses. This would then lead to increasing pressure for midweek courses, which then puts additional pressure on volunteer staff. I can't see any situation, given a chronic manning crisis in all three services, whereby they would start hiring a sizeable cabre of full-time instructors. Nor would the idea of pulling kids out of school in term time be very popular with many schools and colleges. This s to say nothing of being unable to use busy stations like ODI regularly during the week. Even Tern Hill, being a satellite of Shawbs (And correspondingly Predannack/Culdrose for the Andrew) would be unusable most of the time midweek.
As expensive as a Vigilant refit may be, there is a very good reason why, at the time of the pause, only 7 squadrons used the Viking, despite there being a surplus of airframes. Little 626 down only the Lizard went from a 2a/c establishment to 5 or 6 not because there was a big expansion to Plymouth and Cornwall Wing, but because HQACO realised that nobody else could use them.
If cadets return to string-flinging only, then acquiring and maintaining appropriate real estate will be a big problem and many cadets will will face very, very long trips to get there and that would likely cause fatigue problems for weekend courses. This would then lead to increasing pressure for midweek courses, which then puts additional pressure on volunteer staff. I can't see any situation, given a chronic manning crisis in all three services, whereby they would start hiring a sizeable cabre of full-time instructors. Nor would the idea of pulling kids out of school in term time be very popular with many schools and colleges. This s to say nothing of being unable to use busy stations like ODI regularly during the week. Even Tern Hill, being a satellite of Shawbs (And correspondingly Predannack/Culdrose for the Andrew) would be unusable most of the time midweek.
As expensive as a Vigilant refit may be, there is a very good reason why, at the time of the pause, only 7 squadrons used the Viking, despite there being a surplus of airframes. Little 626 down only the Lizard went from a 2a/c establishment to 5 or 6 not because there was a big expansion to Plymouth and Cornwall Wing, but because HQACO realised that nobody else could use them.
Last edited by Cat Funt; 23rd Nov 2015 at 02:48.
Gentleman Aviator
I can't envisage Cardiff Airport allowing the return of winch-launch gliders to St Athan. They were pulled from there in the early 2000s.
) Hangar which was in the middle of what was effectively the North/South strip they used.Being confined to the East/West concrete - shared with all sorts of other stuff at the time - meant Vigis were the better bet......
Still never understood why the Vigis could fly without (professional) ATC in the Tower, but Tutors couldn't ......
Competence Leadership Continuity
Sad that with 2016 bearing down upon us we are still no further forward to seeing substantial progress with 'enabling' the ATC GLIDING operation.
I say GLIDING as that is what we are/were engaged with,and it is the potential 'simplicity' of the operation that has been its champion for over 7 decades.
However an often overlooked scenario is the competence of how the whole operation worked with w-end volunteer staff spread across the country frequently without normal 'service' facilities.
Well it did/does work because the 'Schools' had/have solid competent leadership that knew what was/is required, and a system that allowed those who were capable and keen to develop their own ability in an environment that provided the correct amount of encouragement and safe practice.Above all they had continuity of capability not seen even in the services as people stayed for years and passed on experience and good practice.
It is this complete lack of continuity and competence at the TOP that see's us in the present position, and unless someone who actually knows what is required (and understands how) IS PUT IN POST the system will not be able to heal itself.
The expertise is within the VGS operation who have a proven track record of providing a safe service to Cadets.Unless this pool of competence is used to aid a recovery plan the current 'Team at the top' will destroy decades of good work.
I say GLIDING as that is what we are/were engaged with,and it is the potential 'simplicity' of the operation that has been its champion for over 7 decades.
However an often overlooked scenario is the competence of how the whole operation worked with w-end volunteer staff spread across the country frequently without normal 'service' facilities.
Well it did/does work because the 'Schools' had/have solid competent leadership that knew what was/is required, and a system that allowed those who were capable and keen to develop their own ability in an environment that provided the correct amount of encouragement and safe practice.Above all they had continuity of capability not seen even in the services as people stayed for years and passed on experience and good practice.
It is this complete lack of continuity and competence at the TOP that see's us in the present position, and unless someone who actually knows what is required (and understands how) IS PUT IN POST the system will not be able to heal itself.
The expertise is within the VGS operation who have a proven track record of providing a safe service to Cadets.Unless this pool of competence is used to aid a recovery plan the current 'Team at the top' will destroy decades of good work.
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POBJOY
Sadly I think that in these days of defence cuts and numbers the RAF now wants to 'own' the VGS to pad out the skinny body. The impact of this is that the VGS now has to be run as an FTS more along the lines of the regular air force rather than at arms length and seen as a 'bast@rd son' as in the past............
It means that the old ways will be swept away and not referred to in future. And in a few years it will be like it never existed in a previous form.................
Not progress in my view but sadly the direction I am sure it will take.
Arc
Sadly I think that in these days of defence cuts and numbers the RAF now wants to 'own' the VGS to pad out the skinny body. The impact of this is that the VGS now has to be run as an FTS more along the lines of the regular air force rather than at arms length and seen as a 'bast@rd son' as in the past............
It means that the old ways will be swept away and not referred to in future. And in a few years it will be like it never existed in a previous form.................
Not progress in my view but sadly the direction I am sure it will take.
Arc
Writing to the Comdt ATC !
Sadly RBloke their Comms system is even more broken than the ability to operate aircraft, as i have had no acknowledgement to my prev missive yet.
Anyway i am not suggesting 'my services' but the input of those that have been operating the system at the 'coal face' for years.
Arc If the RAF want to do that they should be more honest with the advertising
rather than suggest (as they do) that the operation is essentially a volunteer effort. The Squadrons have not been deficient in their operations and indeed have coped very well with varying resources; as stated before it is the PAID STAFF that are deficient in providing the competence in back up services.
Quite frankly as an 'ex member' who is still current in aviation i just look at the 'Badge Stitching' nonsense as an example of how out of touch the system has got. Having said that i never felt the need for badges anyway; that was a 'Scout' thing!.
Anyway i am not suggesting 'my services' but the input of those that have been operating the system at the 'coal face' for years.
Arc If the RAF want to do that they should be more honest with the advertising
rather than suggest (as they do) that the operation is essentially a volunteer effort. The Squadrons have not been deficient in their operations and indeed have coped very well with varying resources; as stated before it is the PAID STAFF that are deficient in providing the competence in back up services.
Quite frankly as an 'ex member' who is still current in aviation i just look at the 'Badge Stitching' nonsense as an example of how out of touch the system has got. Having said that i never felt the need for badges anyway; that was a 'Scout' thing!.
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Pobjoy
You may find that any reluctance to reply to your letter is because an honest answer would breach the requirement for commercial confidentiality that is required by the MoD when contracts are put out to tender.
Things are moving on the contract front so the last thing needed in this sorry situation is for a company that fails to get the contract for the glider recovery program to cry foul in the courts sighting unfair treatment because an officer has revealed commercaly sensitive data before the contract process is complete.
If a company did cry foul in the courts it would result in the whole contract having to be re-run and a further delay of 6-9 months.
Things are moving on the contract front so the last thing needed in this sorry situation is for a company that fails to get the contract for the glider recovery program to cry foul in the courts sighting unfair treatment because an officer has revealed commercaly sensitive data before the contract process is complete.
If a company did cry foul in the courts it would result in the whole contract having to be re-run and a further delay of 6-9 months.
As I alluded to in my previous post - I believe this is sort of going to 'plan'.
A massive 'review' of Air Cadet gliding ops being carried out whilst there is no flying capability - because the 'safety case' has been invoked.
There is simply too much going on for it to be a mere coincidence - the 'volunteer' side has been scuppered and there was seemingly nobody from the top brass 'onside' to have helped when needed !
rgds LR
A massive 'review' of Air Cadet gliding ops being carried out whilst there is no flying capability - because the 'safety case' has been invoked.
There is simply too much going on for it to be a mere coincidence - the 'volunteer' side has been scuppered and there was seemingly nobody from the top brass 'onside' to have helped when needed !
rgds LR
No Reply !
Well I sent a very polite missive that contained some pertinent FACTS that could not be disputed.
Although not sent by registered mail i did obtain 'proof of posting' just to have the record.
It would have been entirely in order to have had an 'acknowledgement' of receipt,even if a detailed reply was not available at the time.
To have no replies suggests:- Lost in the 'system', To close to the truth, ignore it and it will go away, wait to xmas eve and then make official statement.
Either way it hardly gives one confidence that anyone 'up top' has any idea of what is going on or has been appraised of the deficiency embedded therein.
Lots of full time people are being paid lots of money to run this 'facility' for the benefit of the Cadet Organisation. To have failed in such a spectacular fashion with no apparent 'questions' begs speculation that the situation is not unusual.
Although not sent by registered mail i did obtain 'proof of posting' just to have the record.
It would have been entirely in order to have had an 'acknowledgement' of receipt,even if a detailed reply was not available at the time.
To have no replies suggests:- Lost in the 'system', To close to the truth, ignore it and it will go away, wait to xmas eve and then make official statement.
Either way it hardly gives one confidence that anyone 'up top' has any idea of what is going on or has been appraised of the deficiency embedded therein.
Lots of full time people are being paid lots of money to run this 'facility' for the benefit of the Cadet Organisation. To have failed in such a spectacular fashion with no apparent 'questions' begs speculation that the situation is not unusual.