Air Cadets grounded?
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Here we go again !
Mechta has hit the nail on the head SERCO are trying to pay peanuts and as always when you do this you will get monkeys all the posts in the link show remuneration at about £10K short of what I would expect to pay someone with the experience outlined in the job spec.
Perhaps SERCO would like to reflect on the fact that not having the right people in post got them into this mess in the first place and that to get the right people you must pay the going rate otherwise the caliber staff they recruit are just going to repeat the mistakes of the past.
The placement of these job advertisements in my view is to try to show the MoD that SERCO are a serious contender for this contract, in fact it just illistrates how wide of the mark their thinking is when it comes to putting together a team with the correct skill level to accomplish the task.
Perhaps SERCO would like to reflect on the fact that not having the right people in post got them into this mess in the first place and that to get the right people you must pay the going rate otherwise the caliber staff they recruit are just going to repeat the mistakes of the past.
The placement of these job advertisements in my view is to try to show the MoD that SERCO are a serious contender for this contract, in fact it just illistrates how wide of the mark their thinking is when it comes to putting together a team with the correct skill level to accomplish the task.
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So sad
'The volunteer Air component of the ATC/CCF has a proud history of delivering the goods and providing a fantastic chance for youth to develop themselves it must not be allowed to wither due to the inability of those who should be providing LEADERSHIP INSPIRATION and EXAMPLE"
I owe so much to these people who gave me the first experience of flight then so much more. The volunteers have been treated very badly indeed. Looking forward to a public apology to them and the generation of cadets who will miss out on gliding by the time this mess is sorted. If the ACO was a business the shareholders would have sacked the directors by now. Safety is paramount yes, but some arse let it get into this state.
I owe so much to these people who gave me the first experience of flight then so much more. The volunteers have been treated very badly indeed. Looking forward to a public apology to them and the generation of cadets who will miss out on gliding by the time this mess is sorted. If the ACO was a business the shareholders would have sacked the directors by now. Safety is paramount yes, but some arse let it get into this state.
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Side salad, you are correct and many (most?) of us had our first exposure to aviation within the cadet organisations. On the Flyer Forum there are some glorious pictures of bungee launched Grasshoppers, complete with no-helmet-black-necktie cadet pilots.
To me, the focus shouldn't be on a public lynching, it should be on fixing the problem such that CGB's offspring have the best opportunity to have the same aviation fun.
Venture Adventure.
To me, the focus shouldn't be on a public lynching, it should be on fixing the problem such that CGB's offspring have the best opportunity to have the same aviation fun.
Venture Adventure.
Belgian Air Cadets
By comparison, the Belgian Air Cadets runs a very good 3-year program for 150 glider pilots (intake of 50 per year selected from about 300 applicants).
Cadets are expected to go solo by the end of the first year.
http://www.belgianaircadets.be/public/uk/fleet.htm
This seems to be a very creditable program for a small country like Belgium to pull off. Perhaps somebody from the UK ACO ought to look into how they do it at Weelde.
End of camp music video parody - looks like they were having a great time with a mix of serious stuff and fun. From the credits you can see that there were 6 gliders with one instructor between 5 cadets and 14 other support staff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVDJG_4NQ_k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msopu4IbmyU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIc-QmzTj6k
Cadets are expected to go solo by the end of the first year.
http://www.belgianaircadets.be/public/uk/fleet.htm
This seems to be a very creditable program for a small country like Belgium to pull off. Perhaps somebody from the UK ACO ought to look into how they do it at Weelde.
End of camp music video parody - looks like they were having a great time with a mix of serious stuff and fun. From the credits you can see that there were 6 gliders with one instructor between 5 cadets and 14 other support staff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVDJG_4NQ_k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msopu4IbmyU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIc-QmzTj6k
And meanwhile - in New Zealand the Air Cadets (shock horror 
) do gliding courses in conjunction with civvy gliding clubs !
Funny old thing - civvy clubs are quite good at gliding !
) do gliding courses in conjunction with civvy gliding clubs !
Gliding Training is organised by the unit in partnership with local Gliding Clubs. There are 2 concurrent annual week long Gliding Courses, which are held at Matamata and Waipukurau aerodromes. Cadets from all over New Zealand may attend these week long courses.
What may be slightly different though is the funding model. I was lucky to act as an escorting officer on an IACE trip to NZ and the cadets there are funded very differently and don't attract the same amount from central funds. Unless things have changed, the majority of their flying is sponsored by outside organisations eg Air New Zealand and I wonder therefore if that might make a difference to what they're allowed to do?
I am sure that is the case Auster Fan - I only mentioned it because the RAF appears to have become a 'cannot do' service instead of the old 'can do' service and earlier in the thread there were comments about the safety of civvy clubs !
rgds LR
rgds LR
This will sound a tad lazy, but 38 pages is a tad long to read; why are the Air Cadet Gliders still grounded? I can thank the VR(T) organisation for getting me airborne, air minded and a set of wings on my chest. What on earth has gone wrong with the VGS System?
Grasshoppers/Daglings
They were really in the domain of the CCF and were flown/slid off some fairly short sites/playingfields,hence spent a lot of the time U/S due broken joints.
They were designed with the ability to have spoilers and control restrictions to prevent a steep climb/stall/prang situation.
When i saw where they were operated from i am not surprised most got a thumping.
However as is obvious when you see clips of them being operated (including assembly) it must have been fantastic fun even if you were not the pilot.
Methinks that two landrovers providing the 'manpower' would give the 'RUN' input the 'extra' zap needed.
A lot of Luftwaffe pilots got their first taste of flying in these type of machines!
They were designed with the ability to have spoilers and control restrictions to prevent a steep climb/stall/prang situation.
When i saw where they were operated from i am not surprised most got a thumping.
However as is obvious when you see clips of them being operated (including assembly) it must have been fantastic fun even if you were not the pilot.
Methinks that two landrovers providing the 'manpower' would give the 'RUN' input the 'extra' zap needed.
A lot of Luftwaffe pilots got their first taste of flying in these type of machines!
Last edited by POBJOY; 23rd Oct 2015 at 00:55.
POBJOY, I think you might find (and I could be wrong) the Air Cadets didn't use Daglings, the other 'primary' (the Slingsby T38 Grasshopper being the better known) was the Eon Eton which looked very similar.
I wonder how the Canadian Air Cadets are getting on with gliding since we "loaned" them a T21 in 1959?
The MOD/HQAC/ACO needs to seriously review their PR with regard to this debacle with regard to the "pause". There are many mixed messages going out from the VGS web sites, Air Cadet News and other social media.
I feel sure there are many aviation journalists (many who read PPRUNE) just sharpening up their knives in readiness to write a story about decisions, indecisions and non decisions in the chain of command.
Sadly the air cadet gliding that I knew and loved has not been available to the Air Cadets for two years. Something needs to be done, quickly.
The MOD/HQAC/ACO needs to seriously review their PR with regard to this debacle with regard to the "pause". There are many mixed messages going out from the VGS web sites, Air Cadet News and other social media.
I feel sure there are many aviation journalists (many who read PPRUNE) just sharpening up their knives in readiness to write a story about decisions, indecisions and non decisions in the chain of command.
Sadly the air cadet gliding that I knew and loved has not been available to the Air Cadets for two years. Something needs to be done, quickly.
Slingsby T38
Chev The Slingsby Grasshopper (or primary glider) was a crib of the German design but built specifically for the ATC/CCF
The name Dagling was what people actually called them no doubt because of the original German name Zogling.
Everyone knows what a Dagling is even though it covers the range of primary gliders.
Elliots of Newbury built a version but they are ALL cribs off the original German design and all look similar.
The Germans used them as proper primary trainers and 'pinged' them off mountain slopes on your own.
The ATC (before they had two seaters) used to give instruction in the single seater Tutor which consisted of ground slides followed by low and high hops. The instructor would also be the winch driver in many cases. The original ATC A&B badge was in fact a BGA certificate given after 3 solo's and the ability to do turns in both directions.
The name Dagling was what people actually called them no doubt because of the original German name Zogling.
Everyone knows what a Dagling is even though it covers the range of primary gliders.
Elliots of Newbury built a version but they are ALL cribs off the original German design and all look similar.
The Germans used them as proper primary trainers and 'pinged' them off mountain slopes on your own.
The ATC (before they had two seaters) used to give instruction in the single seater Tutor which consisted of ground slides followed by low and high hops. The instructor would also be the winch driver in many cases. The original ATC A&B badge was in fact a BGA certificate given after 3 solo's and the ability to do turns in both directions.
Last edited by POBJOY; 23rd Oct 2015 at 11:43.
We had one at Harrow County (the Grammar not the toffs up the Hill). Schoolmaster, wartime RAF pilot, pranged ours - he also had a nice line in "mortars" for field day - 2" iron pipe and 2 thunderflashes. Great guy was Maurice Venn
Last edited by Wander00; 23rd Oct 2015 at 10:03.
This was posted on the Air Cadet Central forum:
So I read from that the fears are starting to 'firm up':
1. Further protracted return of Viking fleet.
2. Likely scrapping of Vigilant fleet.
3. Likely loss of VGSs from current locations (smart money on the Vigilant locations). For current locations see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunt...iding_Squadron
The only positive thing I can draw from this is that it gives at least some information - why it is treated as some sort of high-grade Top Secret fact, though, is beyond me...
The B Word
Gentlemen,
You may be aware that options for the recovery of the glider fleets were presented to CAS on Monday. CAS and his senior staffs were absolutely on board with the need to salvage as much as possible from the glider recovery programme and they share our increasing frustration at the lack of progress in recovering airframes and getting cadets into the air. Despite the costs of recovery, they remain committed to gliding as a core part of the air cadet experience and, based on that commitment, have agreed to invest significant extra funds to let a contract to recover the Viking glider fleet as soon as possible. This will hopefully bring the Vikings on line quicker than current funding plans allowed.
In terms of wider plans for VGS basing and Vigilant long-term recovery CAS has asked that further work be done, hence no final decisions were made on Monday. The AOC is actively tasking key individuals with taking this work forward but it is likely to take some months before all the necessary costing evidence is available to satisfy CAS, DRes and others on the proposed next steps. In light of this further work the AOC and Comdt agreed that calling all the OC VGSs together was a potential wasted journey, particularly as some will travel long distances to reach either of the 2 venues. In simple terms, you need to know what ac will be recovered in what numbers and where they will be based. As we cannot answer those questions today, the briefing at RAF Syerston on sat 24th and at RAF Linton is postponed. The planned roads shows at Kirknewton, Linton, Cranwell, Boscombe Down and Halton are also postponed. You will be advised in due course the revised dates.
Comdt
2FTS
You may be aware that options for the recovery of the glider fleets were presented to CAS on Monday. CAS and his senior staffs were absolutely on board with the need to salvage as much as possible from the glider recovery programme and they share our increasing frustration at the lack of progress in recovering airframes and getting cadets into the air. Despite the costs of recovery, they remain committed to gliding as a core part of the air cadet experience and, based on that commitment, have agreed to invest significant extra funds to let a contract to recover the Viking glider fleet as soon as possible. This will hopefully bring the Vikings on line quicker than current funding plans allowed.
In terms of wider plans for VGS basing and Vigilant long-term recovery CAS has asked that further work be done, hence no final decisions were made on Monday. The AOC is actively tasking key individuals with taking this work forward but it is likely to take some months before all the necessary costing evidence is available to satisfy CAS, DRes and others on the proposed next steps. In light of this further work the AOC and Comdt agreed that calling all the OC VGSs together was a potential wasted journey, particularly as some will travel long distances to reach either of the 2 venues. In simple terms, you need to know what ac will be recovered in what numbers and where they will be based. As we cannot answer those questions today, the briefing at RAF Syerston on sat 24th and at RAF Linton is postponed. The planned roads shows at Kirknewton, Linton, Cranwell, Boscombe Down and Halton are also postponed. You will be advised in due course the revised dates.
Comdt
2FTS
1. Further protracted return of Viking fleet.
2. Likely scrapping of Vigilant fleet.
3. Likely loss of VGSs from current locations (smart money on the Vigilant locations). For current locations see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunt...iding_Squadron
The only positive thing I can draw from this is that it gives at least some information - why it is treated as some sort of high-grade Top Secret fact, though, is beyond me...
The B Word
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The B word
I would agree with your logic, the Viking is a low cost recovery for an airframe that is next to worthless in terms of resale value due to the uncertainty of its type certificate.
The Vigilent has a civil type certificate holder and so the task of civil registration is relitivly straight forward and the aircraft will have a resale value to match, it also requires for long term operation an engine retrofit that will be expensive.
In terms of cost to return to service for the long term I would take a stab at one Vigilent will cost the same as five Vikings.
It is my opinion that the Vigilent is not giving the cadets the training value for money that the Viking can at a much lower price, I am a great advocate of real gliding because it builds a team who fly, recover and launch the gliders, you don't get this with motor gliders because before as a prop starts to turn the cadets have to be the other side of the fence in the Crewroom.
The Vigilent has a civil type certificate holder and so the task of civil registration is relitivly straight forward and the aircraft will have a resale value to match, it also requires for long term operation an engine retrofit that will be expensive.
In terms of cost to return to service for the long term I would take a stab at one Vigilent will cost the same as five Vikings.
It is my opinion that the Vigilent is not giving the cadets the training value for money that the Viking can at a much lower price, I am a great advocate of real gliding because it builds a team who fly, recover and launch the gliders, you don't get this with motor gliders because before as a prop starts to turn the cadets have to be the other side of the fence in the Crewroom.
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The Vigilants were due an engine swap anyway so it may be that they will look to roll this into the recovery program. As this was to allow a change in OSD, the PT would have to carry out either the RA5724 or 5725 activities (depending on whether the MAA decided it was a Life Extension or OSD extension). This would require a lot of resource for even a large PT, and my guess is that the Glider desks aren't exactly over-manned!
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Except, of course, the bulk of the VGSs are now Vigilant schools (15 against 8). Going to a wholly conventional approach is going to leave large parts of the country - particularly the Midlands and the North unsupported by a gliding facility. Moreover, the general trend towards motor-gliders was out of site availability since the vigilant does not require the real estate that a Viking requires to operate. A vigilant VGS also needs fewer staff to launch, it could be done with a DI acting a crash crew leader and an additional crash crew support, plus a pilot of course.
Chev The Slingsby Grasshopper (or primary glider) was a crib of the German design but built specifically for the ATC/CCF
The name Dagling was what people actually called them no doubt because of the original German name Zogling.
Everyone knows what a Dagling is even though it covers the range of primary gliders.
Elliots of Newbury built a version but they are ALL cribs off the original German design and all look similar.
The Germans used them as proper primary trainers and 'pinged' them off mountain slopes on your own.
The ATC (before they had two seaters) used to give instruction in the single seater Tutor which consisted of ground slides followed by low and high hops. The instructor would also be the winch driver in many cases. The original ATC A&B badge was in fact a BGA certificate given after 3 solo's and the ability to do turns in both directions.
The name Dagling was what people actually called them no doubt because of the original German name Zogling.
Everyone knows what a Dagling is even though it covers the range of primary gliders.
Elliots of Newbury built a version but they are ALL cribs off the original German design and all look similar.
The Germans used them as proper primary trainers and 'pinged' them off mountain slopes on your own.
The ATC (before they had two seaters) used to give instruction in the single seater Tutor which consisted of ground slides followed by low and high hops. The instructor would also be the winch driver in many cases. The original ATC A&B badge was in fact a BGA certificate given after 3 solo's and the ability to do turns in both directions.
They were phased out of VGS before I took my 'A & B' course in 1964, but one of the weekend volunteer staff was a Chief Tech Godfrey, who used to tour round CCF schools on weekdays servicing the 'primarys' and instructing on them too. He kept a bungee in the boot of his car, so when 613 (Halton) were issued with a T38, if the weather wasn't suitable for winch launching we would get the T38 out and bungee it backwards and forwards across the airfield.
When the 'primarys' were withdrawn from CCF use, several were stored at Halton and my Squadron commander (we were about 10 miles from Halton) asked if we could have one and we got it! Alas we could do nothing with it as the doors to the standard ATC Hut weren't big enough to lug it in and out in order to assemble it, so it was eventually passed on to another squadron.
Daglings
The 'optional extra' was the tripod kit with ball and socket.
It would be quite cheap to build a few of these again and get the Corps back on track.
It would be quite cheap to build a few of these again and get the Corps back on track.