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Air Cadets grounded?

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Air Cadets grounded?

Old 5th Mar 2020, 13:51
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They are even hiding the brush

Originally Posted by David Thompson



I found these at Linton On Ouse last week and they were very close to a skip although possibly not beyond saving ?
Well done David I see that they are also getting rid of the 'brush' that has served so well in this fiasco. The carpet of course is still in use !!!!
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Old 5th Mar 2020, 14:20
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Signs

David, check PMs please. We’ll look after the signs!
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Old 5th Mar 2020, 14:25
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Interestingly virtually all the VGS Motorglider sites are still under MoD control. Having been told they were closing and being sold off..............

From Wikipedia
  • 611 VGS (RAF Honington), formerly 102 GS Site still MoD
  • 612 VGS (Dalton Barracks), formerly 104 GS – disbanded 14 August 2016 Site still MoD
  • 613 VGS (RAF Halton), formerly C122 GS – closure announced on 10 March 2016 Site still MoD
  • 616 VGS (RAF Henlow), formerly 106 GS – closure announced on 10 March 2016 Site still MoD
  • 618 VGS (RAF Odiham), formerly 146 GS and 168 GS – closure announced on 10 March 2016 Site still MoD
  • 624 VGS (RMB Chivenor), formerly 84 GS – closure announced on 10 March 2016 Site still MoD
  • 637 VGS (Little Rissington) – closure announced on 10 March 2016 Site still MoD
  • 633 VGS (RAF Cosford) – closure announced on 10 March 2016 Site still MoD
  • 634 VGS (MOD St. Athan), formerly 68 GS – closure announced on 10 March 2016 Site still MoD
  • 635 VGS (RAF Topcliffe) (formerly at BAE Samlesbury) – closure announced on 10 March 2016
  • 636 VGS (Swansea Airport) – closure announced on 10 March 2016 civilian but still there........
  • 642 VGS (RAF Linton-on-Ouse), formerly 23 GS – closure announced on 10 March 2016 Site still MoD
  • 663 VGS (RAF Kinloss) – closure announced on 10 March 2016 Site still MoD
  • 664 VGS (Newtownards) – closure announced on 10 March 2016 civilian but still there........
  • 631 VGS (RAF Woodvale) – closure announced on 10 March 2016 Site still MoD
So absolutely no reason for them to ever have been shut down had the equipment been refurbished...............

The othersOnly my favourite site at Hullavington didn't survive

The more I turn it over in my head the more I think this was a calculated plan to decrease the number of VGS's and there was never any intention of returning any of the Vigilants to service. Reduced VGS = enough Vikings to share around between the survivors. Get rid of the expensive powered aircraft by transfer of ownership - reduce the cost. Classic risk management - transfer the problem to SEP (SEP = Someone Else's Problem). As far as MoD is now concerned the wings can come off as well as the wheels - no longer their problem. Sold as seen Guv..........................

D and D (Devious and Dishonest)

It's enough to make you weep.

Arc
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Old 5th Mar 2020, 15:12
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Back to the politicians

As the aircraft were stated by the RAF to be irrecoverable it means that the VSOs involved have lied to at least two ministers of Defence (Reserve Forces) My MP, no longer sitting, and the MP for Strangford, Jim Shannon, within whose constituency lies 664 VGS, as was. I have notified MR. Shannon and my new MP of what is happening, Informing him that he has been lied to in the commons and also warned my new MP that his predecessor has been lied to. I have have asked them both to consider insisting on a judicial review in order to ascertain if Parliament has been lied to. I would suggest that every interested party on Pprune do like wise. The excrement really does need stirring.
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Old 5th Mar 2020, 16:23
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Originally Posted by ACW342
As the aircraft were stated by the RAF to be irrecoverable it means that the VSOs involved have lied to at least two ministers of Defence (Reserve Forces) My MP, no longer sitting, and the MP for Strangford, Jim Shannon, within whose constituency lies 664 VGS, as was. I have notified MR. Shannon and my new MP of what is happening, Informing him that he has been lied to in the commons and also warned my new MP that his predecessor has been lied to. I have have asked them both to consider insisting on a judicial review in order to ascertain if Parliament has been lied to. I would suggest that every interested party on Pprune do like wise. The excrement really does need stirring.
ACW I assume you have a good chronological summary of events, I have some of the picture but would be glad of the factual bones to put some meat on, if you would be willing to share here.
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Old 5th Mar 2020, 17:28
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WB, I only know from the experiences related to me by the members of my old Son, 664. There are others who have greater knowledge than I though I do have some replies from my then MP and the then minister for reserve forces. I would suggest that someone on here with administrative and organisational capabilities could collate all our seperate recollections. I will over the next while try and sieve through this massive thread to see what I can glean, but hey, don't hold your breath. It is up to each of to contact/re-contact our MPs and ministers in who we might have communicated in the past. I don't think ministers who have made erroneous/untruthful statements in the HoC take kindly to having been led up the garden path by senior military officers and pliable civil servants.

ACW342
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Old 5th Mar 2020, 17:31
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Binning the VGS

I was always suspicious of what was going on after muddleton got involved. For no good reason Civilians were deemed to be inappropriate to train Cadets in basic flying despite the cogent proof that this service had been one of the safest flying training organisations in the WORLD for decades. The apparent lack of any 'qualified ' persons who had any idea about flying or gliding actually heading up the whole organisation beggars belief, and the Corps has paid a high price for this total lack of capability.
I think it was all part of the grand scheme of things to make Syerston an Aerospace Camp that could also cover the limited gliding facility, and let the expanded AEF flights cover the Cadet flying availability.
This effectively reduced the requirement of a civilian element to zero, and hey presto problem solved.
The rumours surrounding the Vig fleet were numerous, however they all seemed capable of flying away from their normal base's, and the storage facility is not full of wrecks. Amazingly GROB who apparently had no capability to OH their own original engine now are to 'Modify' a portion of the fleet which includes a complete engine replacement (firewall forward) operation.
In fact GROB do not (on paper) have any glider interests anymore as this was sold on to another company. One day the aircraft is an aviation 'orphan' and then suddenly new parents are found !!. One scandal winds down to be replaced by another, and no one has fallen on a sword yet.
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Old 6th Mar 2020, 09:05
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Worse than Clots

Originally Posted by Cat Funt
C**ts, the lot of them. Utter c**ts.
Not fair on CLOTS CF as clots usually are unaware of what is going on. This bunch knew exactly what was going on, and still do !!!
I assume you meant clots but were to polite to say so !!!!

Last edited by POBJOY; 6th Mar 2020 at 15:54.
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Old 6th Mar 2020, 15:11
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Originally Posted by ACW342
As the aircraft were stated by the RAF to be irrecoverable it means that the VSOs involved have lied to at least two ministers of Defence (Reserve Forces) My MP, no longer sitting, and the MP for Strangford, Jim Shannon, within whose constituency lies 664 VGS, as was. I have notified MR. Shannon and my new MP of what is happening, Informing him that he has been lied to in the commons and also warned my new MP that his predecessor has been lied to. I have have asked them both to consider insisting on a judicial review in order to ascertain if Parliament has been lied to. I would suggest that every interested party on Pprune do like wise. The excrement really does need stirring.
Unfortunately, with the ACO, lying, obfuscation and outright deceit is a standard practice, at many if not all levels.
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Old 6th Mar 2020, 15:53
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Disposal Process

Originally Posted by air pig
Unfortunately, with the ACO, lying, obfuscation and outright deceit is a standard practice, at many if not all levels.
Air Pig The disposal process seems to have been 'infected' to the same degree as the original chaos that brought us to having to dispose of the fleet in the first place.
The RAF have been guilty of using the process to keep the cabal system going thereby trying to prove that the fleet needed a complete makeover to fly again, blatantly untrue as is was.
Of course they did not have to convince a panel of impartial or tech observers that this was the best option as it was not part of the process. Interestingly Aerobility did not want ALL the airframes, but seem to have been used as a convenient 'buffer' to extract the machines from the system and let them drift back into the 'business sector'. As alluded this is probably as big a scandal as the original debacle that started it all.

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Old 7th Mar 2020, 12:36
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Originally Posted by POBJOY
Air Pig The disposal process seems to have been 'infected' to the same degree as the original chaos that brought us to having to dispose of the fleet in the first place.
The RAF have been guilty of using the process to keep the cabal system going thereby trying to prove that the fleet needed a complete makeover to fly again, blatantly untrue as is was.
Of course they did not have to convince a panel of impartial or tech observers that this was the best option as it was not part of the process. Interestingly Aerobility did not want ALL the airframes, but seem to have been used as a convenient 'buffer' to extract the machines from the system and let them drift back into the 'business sector'. As alluded this is probably as big a scandal as the original debacle that started it all.
Worse still McCafferty is on her way soon, useless woman and the previous one wasn't much better. With the contraction of the RAF over the past years the talent pool is very much diminished to recruit from. Any senior officer worth their salt will have a post retiremt job if they want it well lined up. that leaves ????

There are some posters on Air Cadet Central posting about this debacle but are having to go through FOIs, and are involving MPs and peers. I suspect as I have found in the past, they will be 'snowed' out by as I say lies obfuscation and deceit. The letter they sent to my MP was just a cut and paste job as evidenced by the FOI documents I had. I found the AOC and one of her RCs, unreilable and untruthful in their acts and omissions and that extended down to unit level.
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Old 7th Mar 2020, 18:20
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Originally Posted by air pig
Worse still McCafferty is on her way soon, useless woman and the previous one wasn't much better. With the contraction of the RAF over the past years the talent pool is very much diminished to recruit from. Any senior officer worth their salt will have a post retiremt job if they want it well lined up. that leaves ????

There are some posters on Air Cadet Central posting about this debacle but are having to go through FOIs, and are involving MPs and peers. I suspect as I have found in the past, they will be 'snowed' out by as I say lies obfuscation and deceit. The letter they sent to my MP was just a cut and paste job as evidenced by the FOI documents I had. I found the AOC and one of her RCs, unreilable and untruthful in their acts and omissions and that extended down to unit level.
Hi AP There was a real attempt to engage with the disposal process with the aim of returning some of the fleet (without modifications) for AE flying for youth organisations. It became obvious quite early in the process that a determined effort was being made to thwart this despite a very positive input from the LAA. In fact the LAA involvement was treated with some distain by those involved (such was their lack of knowledge of how much expertise the LAA have). The process took on a rather unusual turn when other parties made it their business to try and discredit the LAA route (probably because there was little or no contract work going to be needed), as it was a genuine volunteer low cost option that would have given max benefit of aircraft use and min cost of flying for those who would have benefitted. It would have not stopped Aerobility having machines for their purpose, but of course it also would not have involved another expensive exercise in pretending the fleet needed this 'treatment'. As per the whole of this dreadful sorry state of affairs, the Cadet organisation lost everything, and large amounts of money have been made / spent not providing an airborne service. This will not send waves of concern across the Country because there are plenty of other issues at present that would be seen as more important, but the subject is not closed, and no carpet in the world can cover it up. As mentioned, there have been many voiced concerns on the Cadets own forum, no one is being fooled by the rubbish emanating from Twatter control, and many respected ATC staff are well aware of how badly they have been let down by those at the top.
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Old 7th Mar 2020, 18:28
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Originally Posted by POBJOY
Hi AP There was a real attempt to engage with the disposal process with the aim of returning some of the fleet (without modifications) for AE flying for youth organisations. It became obvious quite early in the process that a determined effort was being made to thwart this despite a very positive input from the LAA. In fact the LAA involvement was treated with some distain by those involved (such was their lack of knowledge of how much expertise the LAA have). The process took on a rather unusual turn when other parties made it their business to try and discredit the LAA route (probably because there was little or no contract work going to be needed), as it was a genuine volunteer low cost option that would have given max benefit of aircraft use and min cost of flying for those who would have benefitted. It would have not stopped Aerobility having machines for their purpose, but of course it also would not have involved another expensive exercise in pretending the fleet needed this 'treatment'. As per the whole of this dreadful sorry state of affairs, the Cadet organisation lost everything, and large amounts of money have been made / spent not providing an airborne service. This will not send waves of concern across the Country because there are plenty of other issues at present that would be seen as more important, but the subject is not closed, and no carpet in the world can cover it up. As mentioned, there have been many voiced concerns on the Cadets own forum, no one is being fooled by the rubbish emanating from Twatter control, and many respected ATC staff are well aware of how badly they have been let down by those at the top.
But, if they can screw up the core ACO function of getting cadets flying whether AEF or to a wings 'standard' then they can't be relied upon to do anything riight, just look at the debacle about shooting as well. The organisation needs a large enema and some people clearing out. It is too much of a rest home for some those looking for a nice FTRS sinecure and have never been outside the fence (institution) into the real world.and had to survive.
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Old 7th Mar 2020, 19:26
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Originally Posted by air pig
Worse still McCafferty is on her way soon, useless woman and the previous one wasn't much better.
That's what happens when you put a bloody Scribbly in charge of Ops! She's been about as effective as an ashtray on a motorbike. Sadly the Regional Commandants are no better. A complete failure of functional leadership at every level.
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Old 7th Mar 2020, 20:07
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Originally Posted by ExAscoteer2
That's what happens when you put a bloody Scribbly in charge of Ops! She's been about as effective as an ashtray on a motorbike. Sadly the Regional Commandants are no better. A complete failure of functional leadership at every level.
I didn't like to mention 'blunties' but see what you get when pen wrestlers have control, no leadership risk adverse. ACTO 35 prohibits cadets flying in non service aircraft, so IF a large airline offered an experience flight to a unit, they can't flyin in it. You actually need aviators of the 'right' sort not the recent incumbents of some posts to move the ACO forward. Those people are few and far between aand they will have been snapped up by the private sector..

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Old 7th Mar 2020, 21:15
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Perhaps the scouts can show us the way

Originally Posted by air pig
I didn't like to mention 'blunties' but see what you get when pen wrestlers have control, no leadership risk adverse. ACTO 35 prohibits cadets flying in non service aircraft, so IF a large airline offered an experience flight to a unit, they can't flyin in it. You actually need aviators of the 'right' sort not the recent incumbents of some posts to move the ACO forward. Those people are few and far between aand they will have been snapped up by the private sector..
I think we all know what the problem is and where.
Leadership (and its team) is critical, The Scouts seem to have got it, and look at their numbers not to mention their activities.
NEW broom required not the old one with new handle. Dib Dib Dib.
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Old 8th Mar 2020, 09:43
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Sadly the Regional Commandants are no better.
And of course none are now aviators I understand.

A few years ago they all were, and had all been regular gp capts. Since the (Civil Service forced) change from ROs to FTRS, most, if not all are regular wg cdrs with "a promotion recommendation". Ex-regulars will be aware that NOT to get at least a "Rec" means you are pretty much no good.

So most of the RCs owe their "promotion" to the Comdt who - understandably - chooses people like herself. She too - unlike all her predecessors - gained promotion on moving (from retirement) to FTRS. She has undoubtedly done enormous amounts for the image of the Air Cadets; for flying, not so much. The paucity - or complete lack - of aviators amongst senior management meant that OC 2 FTS had little credible "peer review", to - if necessary - question and check him. All this may have had an influence on the course of events. That's not for me to judge.
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Old 8th Mar 2020, 15:05
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Originally Posted by POBJOY
I think we all know what the problem is and where.
Leadership (and its team) is critical, The Scouts seem to have got it, and look at their numbers not to mention their activities.
NEW broom required not the old one with new handle. Dib Dib Dib.
As a former WGLO and Wing Aviation Officer, ACTO35 made me despair. The Air Scouts have certainly made it far simpler.

Last September, with a fellow syndicate member, I took our aircraft to Sywell for an annual Air Scouts Aviation Day. There, along with about eight or nine other aircraft and pilots who also gave their time for free, in one day we flew 112 Air Scouts on air experience trips. Although essentially extended circuits, without exception they loved every minute. I’m sure there must be good reasons(?), but why on earth the ACO couldn’t adopt similar regulations to those used by the Air Scouts, I really don’t know....

https://members.scouts.org.uk/por9.16



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Old 8th Mar 2020, 16:07
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Just to remind you: Written Statement to the House of Commons

Mr Julian Brazier(Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Ministry of Defence) 10 th March 2016

In April 2014 all Air Cadet Organisation gliding was paused due to airworthiness concerns with the Grob Viking conventional glider and Grob Vigilant motor glider fleets utilised by the Air Cadet Volunteer Gliding Squadrons (VGS).

Substantial operational, technical and commercial negotiations with a range of aerospace leaders in this field have failed to find a value for money approach to successfully repair and recover all 146 gliders. Consequently a comprehensive Air Cadet Organisation review has proposed restructuring this activity. It has been decided that the best value for money solution is to recover at least 73 Vikings, a reduced Vigilant fleet of up to 15 aircraft, combined with an uplift to Grob Tutor fixed wing Air Experience Flights (AEFs).

The reduced glider fleet will be operated by significantly fewer, but larger, VGS, which will have a regional focus and be better integrated with synthetic training and increased AEF locations. The number of Grob Tutor aircraft beyond 2017 for AEF/ University Air Squadron (UAS) use will go from 45 to 70 airframes, enabling the enlargement of existing AEFs and the formation of two new AEFs. Regional VGS hubs, which have the facility to provide overnight accommodation, will be also created across the UK.

The Volunteer Gliding Squadrons that are due to be disbanded are: 611 Squadron currently based at RAF Honington, 612 Squadron currently based Dalton Barracks (Abingdon), 613 Squadron currently based at RAF Halton, 616 Squadron currently based at RAF Henlow, 618 Squadron currently based at RAF Odiham, 624 Squadron currently based at RMB Chivenor, 633 Squadron currently based at RAF Cosford, 634 Squadron currently based at MOD St Athan, 635 Squadron currently based at RAF Topcliffe, 636 Squadron currently based at Swansea Airport, 642 Squadron currently based at RAF Linton-on-Ouse, 662 Squadron currently based at RMB Arbroath, 663 Squadron currently based at Kinloss Barracks and 664 Squadron currently based at Newtownards.

The Volunteer Gliding Squadrons that are due to be retained are the Central Gliding School and 644 Squadron currently based at RAF Syerston, 614 Squadron currently based at MDP Wethersfield, 615 Squadron currently based at RAF Kenley, 622 Squadron currently based at Trenchard Lines Upavon, 626 Squadron currently based at RNAS Predannack, 631 Squadron currently based at RAF Woodvale, 632 Squadron currently based at RAF Ternhill, 637 Squadron currently based at RAF Little Rissington, 661 Squadron currently based at RAF Kirknewton and 645 Squadron currently based at Topcliffe (from October 2019). 621 Squadron currently based at Hullavington will be retained at RNAS Merryfield.

As part of this process, a number of regional gliding hubs are to be created. We also expect that 2 new Air Experience Flights will be created, 13 AEF and 14 AEF. It is anticipated that 14 AEF will be located in Northern Ireland.

While work is undertaken to set up this new structure, the future locations of these Squadrons remains subject to the outcome of MOD estate rationalisation due to announce later this year. While it is likely that many Squadrons will remain at their current locations, we are working to ensure that, where this is not the case, flying opportunities will be made available to Cadet Units within their region and any new locations will be as geographically close to the existing locations as possible.

We recognise that this means that some uncertainty will remain for our cadets, but we are confident that this new structure will maximise flying opportunities for them.

As VGS are run by volunteer staffs, this will not result in any job losses, albeit volunteering options will be affected. The RAF is extremely grateful for the volunteers that support each VGS; without this support Air Cadet gliding would not be possible. Consequently we will develop a crossover plan which will enable many volunteer gliding instructors who become surplus on affected VGS to convert to Viking; transfer to a formally established ground cadre within a VGS; transfer their instructional skill sets into the units of the mainstream Air Cadet Organisation; or to retrain to fly the Grob Tutor in the expanded AEF construct.

The RAF remains committed to Air Cadet flying and will ultimately increase investment in the VGS and AEF sites which will remain to include the provision of residential accommodation for cadets and staff. This will enable those cadet units which have to travel greater distances to the VGS to undertake a residential weekend, with better associated force development and ground training opportunities alongside the gliding and flying. With the introduction of glider simulators, funded by the RAF Charitable Trust, the Air Cadet Organisation have developed a common syllabus for cadet flying which better integrates and allocates cadet flying opportunities between realistic synthetic flight simulation, glider flying and an uplift of AEF flights.

We will make a further statement when we can say more on basing.”


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Old 8th Mar 2020, 21:39
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So, has there been any effect whatsoever on RAF recruiting between 2014 and now?
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