Air Cadets grounded?
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Pobjoy is right. Not only right, but if he is brave enough he can make it happen
In about 1962-3 the ATC squadron at Meir (I don't remember its number) in Staffordshire was disbanded. The then now ex ATC CFI and several of the instructors (most of whom worked in the company where I was Chief Mechanical Designer) put it about that we might start a gliding club to operate on the now disused airfield. I and several colleagues attended a meeting in a pub at Stoke on Trent and decided to raise the cash needed to get a basic set of kit together - a T31, a second hand winch, an Aldis lamp, and a government surplus Land Rover. When I left Meir in 1969 the Staffordshire Gliding Club had trained over thirty ab-initios to solo standard, had added two more gliders a Capstan and a Swallow, to the club fleet and had three syndicates (I started one) operating Olympia 2Bs and one 463. Numerous Silver legs had been gained (I had two) and two of the original ab initios were now instructors (me again). Our technical team by this time had built a new diesel winch of my design which I adapted from two old lorries..
It can be done if the will is there. Get out there and do it. And enjoy the egg on the faces at 2FTS.
In about 1962-3 the ATC squadron at Meir (I don't remember its number) in Staffordshire was disbanded. The then now ex ATC CFI and several of the instructors (most of whom worked in the company where I was Chief Mechanical Designer) put it about that we might start a gliding club to operate on the now disused airfield. I and several colleagues attended a meeting in a pub at Stoke on Trent and decided to raise the cash needed to get a basic set of kit together - a T31, a second hand winch, an Aldis lamp, and a government surplus Land Rover. When I left Meir in 1969 the Staffordshire Gliding Club had trained over thirty ab-initios to solo standard, had added two more gliders a Capstan and a Swallow, to the club fleet and had three syndicates (I started one) operating Olympia 2Bs and one 463. Numerous Silver legs had been gained (I had two) and two of the original ab initios were now instructors (me again). Our technical team by this time had built a new diesel winch of my design which I adapted from two old lorries..
It can be done if the will is there. Get out there and do it. And enjoy the egg on the faces at 2FTS.
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LJ:
Thanks for coming back. I apologise for not being more clear when I posted my thoughts on military aircraft registration. What I was (badly) trying to put over was that if the RAF spent public monies to actually purchase a fleet of aircraft (to be clear, so that they owned the assets) and then operate these aircraft within the regulatory structures then in place (most notably to write and own the Release to Service) then, as far as I'm aware, the aircraft had to be on the military register. I know that's a slightly circular argument.
You quote the example of 'your' Grob Tutors, which are on the civilian register. Actually, they're not 'yours', they're owned and operated by Babcock under a PFI deal. The MoD gets a fleet that supports all three services, and, as you quite rightly point out, doesn't have to go through the hoops of complying with all the MAA regs. The Voyagers are operated to Part 145, but I think you'll find most of them are on the military register, and have a Release to Service to cover military operation. Likewise, the Shadows are military registered, and, again I believe, have a Release to Service.
However, on the really important bit, I thoroughly agree with you. If there was an appetite to provide the RAF with the world's largest fleet of gliders as a recruiting tool, then I'm sure ways could be found to do it. Where we part company is on whether that should be done. I don't think any public money should be spent on this any more.
Best Regards as ever to all those giving their time and effort to the ATC,
Engines
Thanks for coming back. I apologise for not being more clear when I posted my thoughts on military aircraft registration. What I was (badly) trying to put over was that if the RAF spent public monies to actually purchase a fleet of aircraft (to be clear, so that they owned the assets) and then operate these aircraft within the regulatory structures then in place (most notably to write and own the Release to Service) then, as far as I'm aware, the aircraft had to be on the military register. I know that's a slightly circular argument.
You quote the example of 'your' Grob Tutors, which are on the civilian register. Actually, they're not 'yours', they're owned and operated by Babcock under a PFI deal. The MoD gets a fleet that supports all three services, and, as you quite rightly point out, doesn't have to go through the hoops of complying with all the MAA regs. The Voyagers are operated to Part 145, but I think you'll find most of them are on the military register, and have a Release to Service to cover military operation. Likewise, the Shadows are military registered, and, again I believe, have a Release to Service.
However, on the really important bit, I thoroughly agree with you. If there was an appetite to provide the RAF with the world's largest fleet of gliders as a recruiting tool, then I'm sure ways could be found to do it. Where we part company is on whether that should be done. I don't think any public money should be spent on this any more.
Best Regards as ever to all those giving their time and effort to the ATC,
Engines
Great post Olympia 463! You remind us what can be done by good people who have both determination and expertise. The dross that this thread instances and which reflects much that is wrong nowadays doesn't have to be. Like the creative arts and the frontiers of science, societies have their ups and downs. We've certainly had our fair share of down and perhaps it is now time for an up.
If that is so then ATC gliding reborn would be merely one facet of the effect which would be seen everywhere, even in UK Military Air Regulation and Accident Investigation. What a prize that would be for the Royal Air Force having got in its first hundred and now looking for the second!
If that is so then ATC gliding reborn would be merely one facet of the effect which would be seen everywhere, even in UK Military Air Regulation and Accident Investigation. What a prize that would be for the Royal Air Force having got in its first hundred and now looking for the second!
Hi Engines
Thanks for the info. The only slight correction I would add would be that Shadow was indeed on the Civil Register in the early days before 14 Sqn was formed. No, thatis not a delivery flight ;-)
Thanks for the info. The only slight correction I would add would be that Shadow was indeed on the Civil Register in the early days before 14 Sqn was formed. No, thatis not a delivery flight ;-)
It's evident from that image that they were always intended to be on the military register though: You can see where the allocated military serial has been covered in tape.
I suspect that image is taken before handover to MOD, even if photographed after it first appeared at a MOD site.
I suspect that image is taken before handover to MOD, even if photographed after it first appeared at a MOD site.
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Having been away for a while, have only just picked up on this one. I'd say I'm dumbfounded, however if I'm honest I'm not in the least surprised. Most of us could see this eventually happening back in 2015 when it became clear that things were in just too big a mess to fix, the Vigi was clearly doomed and those in power were just too incompetent to do anything correctly.
Announcing an immediate withdrawal from service a day before however is yet another 2FTS morale destroyer.
Another day, another PR disaster for the RAFAC. All very sad.
Announcing an immediate withdrawal from service a day before however is yet another 2FTS morale destroyer.
Another day, another PR disaster for the RAFAC. All very sad.
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Something in my head said that someone, somewhere felt that the Air Cadets were becoming just a bit too much of a private air force. Let's clip their wings
1. Reduce the number of VGS
2. Get rid of the RAF VR(T) - give them a Scout Masters position (less the woggle)
3. Stop them operating a powered aircraft (Vigi)
4. Get control of the AEF aspects - make them do it 'our way' - or not at all
5. Wrap it all up as 're-organisation and cost saving exercise' to make us look good...........
Job done...................
Arc
1. Reduce the number of VGS
2. Get rid of the RAF VR(T) - give them a Scout Masters position (less the woggle)
3. Stop them operating a powered aircraft (Vigi)
4. Get control of the AEF aspects - make them do it 'our way' - or not at all
5. Wrap it all up as 're-organisation and cost saving exercise' to make us look good...........
Job done...................
Arc
Something in my head said that someone, somewhere felt that the Air Cadets were becoming just a bit too much of a private air force. Let's clip their wings
1. Reduce the number of VGS
2. Get rid of the RAF VR(T) - give them a Scout Masters position (less the woggle)
3. Stop them operating a powered aircraft (Vigi)
4. Get control of the AEF aspects - make them do it 'our way' - or not at all
5. Wrap it all up as 're-organisation and cost saving exercise' to make us look good...........
Job done...................
Arc
1. Reduce the number of VGS
2. Get rid of the RAF VR(T) - give them a Scout Masters position (less the woggle)
3. Stop them operating a powered aircraft (Vigi)
4. Get control of the AEF aspects - make them do it 'our way' - or not at all
5. Wrap it all up as 're-organisation and cost saving exercise' to make us look good...........
Job done...................
Arc
All CHANGE
I Say hooray for the woggle and bin the idiots now (not in charge)
Nothing to loose; as they have already destroyed the organisation therefore why wait for them to give themselves even more time, and money wasting powers to build their non effective ivory tower empire (in the middle of nowhere doing anything useful for real Cadets) Dib Dib Dib
Nothing to loose; as they have already destroyed the organisation therefore why wait for them to give themselves even more time, and money wasting powers to build their non effective ivory tower empire (in the middle of nowhere doing anything useful for real Cadets) Dib Dib Dib
Question please ?
Is it generally agreed that those six Vigilants were still perfectly airworthy at 4pm on Sunday 6th May ?
Or had some further safety problem arisen (that has yet to be revealed) that required an urgent cessation of Vigilant operations ?
Was the termination in the middle of a busy bank holiday flypro yet another carefully polished policy decision ?
Or was it another demonstration of crass mismanagement and a stupid time to bury bad news ?
LFH
..............
Is it generally agreed that those six Vigilants were still perfectly airworthy at 4pm on Sunday 6th May ?
Or had some further safety problem arisen (that has yet to be revealed) that required an urgent cessation of Vigilant operations ?
Was the termination in the middle of a busy bank holiday flypro yet another carefully polished policy decision ?
Or was it another demonstration of crass mismanagement and a stupid time to bury bad news ?
LFH
..............
CRASS MISMANAGEMENT (Situation Normal)
YES
NO
YES
NO (not a Demo an actual real example of more CRASS MISMANAGEMENT)
Situation normal at 2FTS
Engine is a VW with 'bolt on bits'. Nothing that could not be fettled in a homebuilders garage. UC has been beefed up for circuit work. No rocket science at work here.
Biggest problem is the brain transplant required for the paid staff organising the COCK UP. Harley Street said too much work required; easier to bin them and start again with new stock.
PTT planned for 'Shopping Bag Filling'; new badge with 'winged box' in design stage. Leaked info suggests box will have grinning image of JM with two thumbs up saying:- BAG IT WITH THE AIR CADETS. 2FTS planning training courses with dummy tills in the old Glass repair shop, and staff from Cranditz playing as confused customers (no training required) None of these useless individuals would have ever made staff Cadet (as was)
NO
YES
NO (not a Demo an actual real example of more CRASS MISMANAGEMENT)
Situation normal at 2FTS
Engine is a VW with 'bolt on bits'. Nothing that could not be fettled in a homebuilders garage. UC has been beefed up for circuit work. No rocket science at work here.
Biggest problem is the brain transplant required for the paid staff organising the COCK UP. Harley Street said too much work required; easier to bin them and start again with new stock.
PTT planned for 'Shopping Bag Filling'; new badge with 'winged box' in design stage. Leaked info suggests box will have grinning image of JM with two thumbs up saying:- BAG IT WITH THE AIR CADETS. 2FTS planning training courses with dummy tills in the old Glass repair shop, and staff from Cranditz playing as confused customers (no training required) None of these useless individuals would have ever made staff Cadet (as was)
Last edited by POBJOY; 16th May 2018 at 12:12. Reason: content
None of these useless individuals would have ever made staff Cadet (as was)
From memory the photo above is from the early days of MoD ownership but is being flown by a mixed crew that included a civilian TP.
Update, AEF restriction 65yrs. Restrictions on civilian command past 60 are many including other pilot must be under 60.
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Gentleman Aviator
The same flawed RAF air safety thinking that bans a part time AEF pilot when over 60, but he’s allowed to legally and safely fly as Capt of an A380 with 450+ pax!!
....... his day job? 737 pilot!
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Vigilant -
I'd like to ask - Have the Vigilants (and Vikings) ever been considered airworthy in the technical and legal sense.
How would you find out?
I imagine right now a disposal firm experienced in destroying GRP and Carbon frames are setting up near Little Rissington to simply reduce them to dust - once most have forgotten and the news is chip paper.
I'd like to ask - Have the Vigilants (and Vikings) ever been considered airworthy in the technical and legal sense.
How would you find out?
I imagine right now a disposal firm experienced in destroying GRP and Carbon frames are setting up near Little Rissington to simply reduce them to dust - once most have forgotten and the news is chip paper.
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Vigilant -
I'd like to ask - Have the Vigilants (and Vikings) ever been considered airworthy in the technical and legal sense.
How would you find out?
I imagine right now a disposal firm experienced in destroying GRP and Carbon frames are setting up near Little Rissington to simply reduce them to dust - once most have forgotten and the news is chip paper.
I'd like to ask - Have the Vigilants (and Vikings) ever been considered airworthy in the technical and legal sense.
How would you find out?
I imagine right now a disposal firm experienced in destroying GRP and Carbon frames are setting up near Little Rissington to simply reduce them to dust - once most have forgotten and the news is chip paper.