Air Cadets grounded?
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I hope the volunteers were informed before the rest of the ACO/BADER was. Lots of hard work out the window. Hope there's enough volunteer motivaton at places like Topcliffe to have a strong and successful transition to Vikings.
Who knows where the Vigilants will end up..
Who knows where the Vigilants will end up..
I can only assume that c*** Middleton learned nothing from his experience of axeing the other squadrons about the proper way of treating people who are giving up their time and effort for you for free. What a tragic further waste. I imagine there will be a rump who could be willing to stay on, but they will clearly be the more masochistic of the bunch. Fool me once, shame on you, etc...
Last edited by Cat Funt; 7th May 2018 at 21:41.
>The recovery of remaining 9 Vigilant aircraft relied on an innovative recovery proposal from Grob Aircraft SE. This is no longer an option.<
Can anyone clarify why "This is no longer an option"? And what precisely stops the Vigilant fleet from being sold into the ordinary civilian market and refurbished or re-engined as required, as the Ventures were?
Can anyone clarify why "This is no longer an option"? And what precisely stops the Vigilant fleet from being sold into the ordinary civilian market and refurbished or re-engined as required, as the Ventures were?
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Is my guess! Without intervention, I anticipate they will all be cut up and incur additional disposal costs...
Innotive recovery proposal
I suspect that Grob do not actually have a procedure for this and the cost of preparing one and 'covering' themselves, with a fleet that already has a questionable paperwork history probably got their financial,and legal team quite excited. Had it been one of their 'off the shelf' models then things may have been different.
Yes we know that if these machines went into the civvy world common sense would prevail and they would all be flying again; however that would make the whole ATC/RAF/MOD/2FTS operation look very amateur and may even prompt even more questions as to various 'capabilities' amongst those running the show, and getting well paid to not provide anything.
Sad to say that the Air Cadet Organisation has been badly let down by those paid to provide a service, but not let down by those providing the actual flying training at the 'schools'. The whole 2 FTS 'thing' is an expensive joke, and just a cost that does not justify itself. But the real E I T Room is this whole debacle shows what a COMPLETE LACK OF LEADERSHIP AND ABILITY HAS BEFALLEN THE CADET ORGANISATION AS A WHOLE, and unless that gets changed nothing else will, and they will just produce more spin, hype, twatter,and fancy adverts, promoting their sad attempts to keep their jobs going. All these people had to do was to keep the standards up, and 'maintain' the situation, as the 'system' at source was NOT BROKEN and indeed never was from a delivery of flying training point.
Yes we know that if these machines went into the civvy world common sense would prevail and they would all be flying again; however that would make the whole ATC/RAF/MOD/2FTS operation look very amateur and may even prompt even more questions as to various 'capabilities' amongst those running the show, and getting well paid to not provide anything.
Sad to say that the Air Cadet Organisation has been badly let down by those paid to provide a service, but not let down by those providing the actual flying training at the 'schools'. The whole 2 FTS 'thing' is an expensive joke, and just a cost that does not justify itself. But the real E I T Room is this whole debacle shows what a COMPLETE LACK OF LEADERSHIP AND ABILITY HAS BEFALLEN THE CADET ORGANISATION AS A WHOLE, and unless that gets changed nothing else will, and they will just produce more spin, hype, twatter,and fancy adverts, promoting their sad attempts to keep their jobs going. All these people had to do was to keep the standards up, and 'maintain' the situation, as the 'system' at source was NOT BROKEN and indeed never was from a delivery of flying training point.
The buck stops, where?
Can I suggest that anyone sympathetic to the Air Cadet gliding debacle attending a mutual back-slapping in this RAF 100 year could try and raise awareness of the situation that has occurred? The intention being, to precipitate a drive for future Air Cadet gliding cast in the mould of it's previous success!
OAP
OAP
Just recently walked away from working with the ACO as they have been breaking all their own rules and the lies and deceit from the management is sickening.
What a total and utter shambles! The cadets will suffer and I know that the volunteer staff at all levels are more than unimpressed! I have very recently retired from the ACO due to a mixture of old age and complete disgust at the way it is being run by the full-time (paid!) so called "professionals"!! The staff on the Squadrons, Wing etc. must be really fed up (not guessing!!).
Bill
Bill
There's little point having a go at the Middleton person. You need to view this as another Nimrod MRA4. Read the Nimrod Review, but substitute Gliders for Nimrod. Or do the same with ANY of the Airworthiness Review Team reports of the 90s. Or the Director Internal Audit report of 1996. Or the EAC audit report of 1988. The blame lies higher up, and goes back many years.
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There's little point having a go at the Middleton person. You need to view this as another Nimrod MRA4. Read the Nimrod Review, but substitute Gliders for Nimrod. Or do the same with ANY of the Airworthiness Review Team reports of the 90s. Or the Director Internal Audit report of 1996. Or the EAC audit report of 1988. The blame lies higher up, and goes back many years.
Cat Funt (great!), I cannot disagree with you, but you describe many in MoD other than Middleton; both serving and civilian. Management sets the tone. As his management (ultimately the Air Staff) also acts like this, Middleton is encouraged in his manner.
While the problems on gliders have come to a head this decade, the underlying systemic failures were notified to these very senior staff in, at latest, January 1988. Gliders are simply the latest in a long line of failures, many of which resulted in avoidable deaths. What I'd like to know is why it has taken so long. Nimrod MRA4 was (belatedly) cancelled 8 years ago because it could never be made airworthy. Gliders suffered the same way. You need to join the dots. In 2011, when Flt Lt Cunningham was killed, MoD had to admit there was no valid Hawk safety case. Same with gliders. Same Type Airworthiness Authority. If you want to start somewhere with an individual, there's a clue. But work upwards, not downwards.
While the problems on gliders have come to a head this decade, the underlying systemic failures were notified to these very senior staff in, at latest, January 1988. Gliders are simply the latest in a long line of failures, many of which resulted in avoidable deaths. What I'd like to know is why it has taken so long. Nimrod MRA4 was (belatedly) cancelled 8 years ago because it could never be made airworthy. Gliders suffered the same way. You need to join the dots. In 2011, when Flt Lt Cunningham was killed, MoD had to admit there was no valid Hawk safety case. Same with gliders. Same Type Airworthiness Authority. If you want to start somewhere with an individual, there's a clue. But work upwards, not downwards.
Quiz Time.........fingers at the ready!
The Vigilant 'fleet' is being replaced with?
A) a nice new fleet of shiny motor-gliders.
B) f**k all.
Management will get?
A) the sack.
B) medals.
A) a nice new fleet of shiny motor-gliders.
B) f**k all.
Management will get?
A) the sack.
B) medals.
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Tuc, of course you are right with the practical explanation and perhaps the very fact that aircraft have been grounded/withdrawn/destroyed is indicative of senior officers actually waking-up to the issues and doing the 'right thing' (insofar as they recognise the problem and from a personal level are unwilling to continue the charade). However, that leaves two major issues - One, how do you get out of the mess without available cash? Two, how do you retain a vital volunteer 'force' if you are ever going to stop the rot or have devised a cunning plan to answer question one?
I spent a mere quarter of a century in the RAF and can say, hand on heart, that the current AOC 22 Gp (Bunny) and previous (Andy T) are good men and they are strong managers; the same cannot be said of Comdt 2 FTS. Of course, AOCs don't have much influence here, it's far more convoluted.
I spent a mere quarter of a century in the RAF and can say, hand on heart, that the current AOC 22 Gp (Bunny) and previous (Andy T) are good men and they are strong managers; the same cannot be said of Comdt 2 FTS. Of course, AOCs don't have much influence here, it's far more convoluted.
A while back I was talking to some Boy Scouts at a town parade, I was with the local ATC squadron. A couple of the scouts said they wanted to join the RAF so I asked why they stayed in the scouts and did not join the ATC.
Their collective response was "Why would we do that? We can do far more in the scouts" - They, in their youth, hit the nail on the head.
Their collective response was "Why would we do that? We can do far more in the scouts" - They, in their youth, hit the nail on the head.
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Just when you thought the recovery was well underway JM and 2FTS drop another bombshell. Farewell Vigilant fleet 2 years early, see below
'The 2016 relaunch of Air Cadet Gliding stated we would operate up to 15 Vigilant powered gliders with an Out of Service Date (OSD) of October 2019, 6 having been recovered already. The recovery of remaining 9 Vigilant aircraft relied on an innovative recovery proposal from Grob Aircraft SE. This is no longer an option. The removal of this option, challenging technical support for 2 fleets, and low Vigilant availability mean that continued operation of Vigilant is no longer considered viable. Consequently, we will withdraw the Vigilant glider fleet from service immediately, bringing forward its planned OSD. The Topcliffe VGS will convert to the Viking aircraft earlier than originally planned. This approach will free up engineers and allow the glider engineering enterprise to focus solely on the safe recovery and operation of the Viking fleet.'
'The 2016 relaunch of Air Cadet Gliding stated we would operate up to 15 Vigilant powered gliders with an Out of Service Date (OSD) of October 2019, 6 having been recovered already. The recovery of remaining 9 Vigilant aircraft relied on an innovative recovery proposal from Grob Aircraft SE. This is no longer an option. The removal of this option, challenging technical support for 2 fleets, and low Vigilant availability mean that continued operation of Vigilant is no longer considered viable. Consequently, we will withdraw the Vigilant glider fleet from service immediately, bringing forward its planned OSD. The Topcliffe VGS will convert to the Viking aircraft earlier than originally planned. This approach will free up engineers and allow the glider engineering enterprise to focus solely on the safe recovery and operation of the Viking fleet.'
At 4pm today the 'fleet' were withdrawn for good.
I hope the volunteers were informed before the rest of the ACO/BADER was. Lots of hard work out the window. Hope there's enough volunteer motivaton at places like Topcliffe to have a strong and successful transition to Vikings.
Who knows where the Vigilants will end up..
I hope the volunteers were informed before the rest of the ACO/BADER was. Lots of hard work out the window. Hope there's enough volunteer motivaton at places like Topcliffe to have a strong and successful transition to Vikings.
Who knows where the Vigilants will end up..
Last edited by boswell bear; 8th May 2018 at 16:28.
Cows
I cannot speak for the volunteer force, except to sympathise with their plight. These people gave their time freely only to be royally shat upon.
But I can offer personal experience on
.
What may at first be a limitation, can easily become a constraint if allowed to fester. This case is a good example.
From what little I know, when this glider problem was identified it was a limitation. Clearing it should be self-tasked by the most junior civil servant engineer in the Service HQ. You don't need telling. It's a line item in your TORs. When in that position many moons ago (on avionics), it was a routine expectation that I find that money, from underspends or offsets. (I think £22M was the most I had to find at the drop of a hat). Effectively, it was an in-year project, but without the nause of submissions and approvals. Far less hassle than a UOR. There is a Def Stan that is the bible. Write down the problems, and find where they're mentioned. (And the WILL be). Read, and implement.
Admittedly, I didn't have to deal with a Middleton. Usually it was Commander (Air) at a Typed Air Station. But the principles are the same. You're there to help, and I've never come across anyone who wasn't on-side. From a civvy's perspective, that is a good system. If you do come across a Middleton, you find yourself with an address book full of contacts, many senior to him. It may seem odd to a serviceman within a strict rank structure, but "You're standing into danger" and a half page briefing is usually enough. In short order, he's called his (real) #2, the Charge Chief. Almost certainly he already knows of the problem and solution, but the Service culture has made it difficult to raise at a high enough level to authorise resources and red tape cutting. But now, #1 is telling him to crack on. He gladly does the work, as he's now got top cover and resources. I guarantee those on gliders will be nodding sagely.
Now, tell me why today's PTs and the MAA can't do this. Starter for ten. None of them have ever experienced a word of what I've said.
I cannot speak for the volunteer force, except to sympathise with their plight. These people gave their time freely only to be royally shat upon.
But I can offer personal experience on
how do you get out of the mess without available cash?
What may at first be a limitation, can easily become a constraint if allowed to fester. This case is a good example.
From what little I know, when this glider problem was identified it was a limitation. Clearing it should be self-tasked by the most junior civil servant engineer in the Service HQ. You don't need telling. It's a line item in your TORs. When in that position many moons ago (on avionics), it was a routine expectation that I find that money, from underspends or offsets. (I think £22M was the most I had to find at the drop of a hat). Effectively, it was an in-year project, but without the nause of submissions and approvals. Far less hassle than a UOR. There is a Def Stan that is the bible. Write down the problems, and find where they're mentioned. (And the WILL be). Read, and implement.
Admittedly, I didn't have to deal with a Middleton. Usually it was Commander (Air) at a Typed Air Station. But the principles are the same. You're there to help, and I've never come across anyone who wasn't on-side. From a civvy's perspective, that is a good system. If you do come across a Middleton, you find yourself with an address book full of contacts, many senior to him. It may seem odd to a serviceman within a strict rank structure, but "You're standing into danger" and a half page briefing is usually enough. In short order, he's called his (real) #2, the Charge Chief. Almost certainly he already knows of the problem and solution, but the Service culture has made it difficult to raise at a high enough level to authorise resources and red tape cutting. But now, #1 is telling him to crack on. He gladly does the work, as he's now got top cover and resources. I guarantee those on gliders will be nodding sagely.
Now, tell me why today's PTs and the MAA can't do this. Starter for ten. None of them have ever experienced a word of what I've said.
Out of interest where are all the Vigilants currently located - bar the Topcliffe 3? They've vanished and are holed up somewhere - all 50 odd of them.
I wonder how long the Topcliffe guys will be grounded for again as they sort the conversion onto Viking, winches, retrieve vehicles.
Actually are they able to operate from the airfield with it's runway lighting and recent resurfacing?
Finding out at 10am on a busy bank holiday with a full program is such incompetence it's insulting.
I wonder how long the Topcliffe guys will be grounded for again as they sort the conversion onto Viking, winches, retrieve vehicles.
Actually are they able to operate from the airfield with it's runway lighting and recent resurfacing?
Finding out at 10am on a busy bank holiday with a full program is such incompetence it's insulting.