Air Cadets grounded?
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Before Southern Sailplanes commenced the overhaul, the assets' open market value was nil.
Those through the overhaul programme might be worth £30-40K each, having spent, reputedly, £100K per airframe.
Those left, are virtually worthless.
You'd have thought with the numbers at CGS/2FTS involved with engineering oversight (2 x Wing Commanders, Tech Sevices, Contract Management and Quality Audit) and that's in addition to the Serco/Oxford people, that between them they could've managed the paperwork a little better.
Imagine if this was any other aircraft maintenace operation, GA or airline, they'd have all been sacked - how many are still in post?
Those through the overhaul programme might be worth £30-40K each, having spent, reputedly, £100K per airframe.
Those left, are virtually worthless.
You'd have thought with the numbers at CGS/2FTS involved with engineering oversight (2 x Wing Commanders, Tech Sevices, Contract Management and Quality Audit) and that's in addition to the Serco/Oxford people, that between them they could've managed the paperwork a little better.
Imagine if this was any other aircraft maintenace operation, GA or airline, they'd have all been sacked - how many are still in post?
All the non recovered airframes would of had some capital value no matter how many flooded the market at one time, there are plenty of eastern European gliding clubs would snap them up following the Blanik demise and shortage of affordable 2 seaters.
Say a mean price of G103 Acro is 24k for a well used one, flood the market with a disposal of assets and you'd get 16-17k all day long for each one..remember they've all got 9000+ hrs left in the world away from the VGS, thats 75% of usable life left
Spend the reputed 100-120k plus on each Membury recovered airframe and you'd only get 5-6k extra return on the gliders.
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WOW, yes, you could probably sell them for those figures to that particular market but would any club in the UK or elsewhere in the world buy one knowing their history? - or lack of history as records have been disposed of - too much time and money to be invested (not £100K admittedly but still too much for the average club).
But, until they're actually sold off neither you or I won't know what the interest will be or what price they'll achieve because let's face it, the G103 isn't the most inspiring basic 2 seater to fly, central and eastern Europe prefer the Puchacz.
If you're thinking commercially of how much the taxpayer will get back in to the public purse in selling off the surplus, those to be sold off won't even cover the Gp. Capt.'s salary for the duration of the 'pause' or other expenses accrued by all concerned in pursuing an outcome.
As for financial advice, I've always provided my own thanks and it's served me pretty well - mortgage free by 40, retired at 50, (OK, I run a small business as a hobby, part of which is supplying essential equipment.........to keep the RAF flying), sh!tload of cash in the bank, let's say enough to put a cheeky bid in for the whole fleet of G103's if they became available.
But, until they're actually sold off neither you or I won't know what the interest will be or what price they'll achieve because let's face it, the G103 isn't the most inspiring basic 2 seater to fly, central and eastern Europe prefer the Puchacz.
If you're thinking commercially of how much the taxpayer will get back in to the public purse in selling off the surplus, those to be sold off won't even cover the Gp. Capt.'s salary for the duration of the 'pause' or other expenses accrued by all concerned in pursuing an outcome.
As for financial advice, I've always provided my own thanks and it's served me pretty well - mortgage free by 40, retired at 50, (OK, I run a small business as a hobby, part of which is supplying essential equipment.........to keep the RAF flying), sh!tload of cash in the bank, let's say enough to put a cheeky bid in for the whole fleet of G103's if they became available.
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As for financial advice, I've always provided my own thanks and it's served me pretty well - mortgage free by 40, retired at 50, (OK, I run a small business as a hobby, part of which is supplying essential equipment.........to keep the RAF flying), sh!tload of cash in the bank, let's say enough to put a cheeky bid in for the whole fleet of G103's if they became available.
As for financial advice, I've always provided my own thanks and it's served me pretty well - mortgage free by 40, retired at 50, (OK, I run a small business as a hobby, part of which is supplying essential equipment.........to keep the RAF flying), sh!tload of cash in the bank, let's say enough to put a cheeky bid in for the whole fleet of G103's if they became available.
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Chevvron - you know what they say - how do you end up a millionaire in aviation.......start with ten million.
I know North Denes, and I've thought of asking when it was operational whether I could take an aircraft in but as I recall there wasn't a chance.
As to opening it up again for fixed wing (it's about 500m of grass) I don't think you'd get agreement from the council especially as the 27 threshold is not far from a busy main road (and a few houses).
I'll have a look next time I'm in Great Yarmouth.....but not with a view to buying it.
I know North Denes, and I've thought of asking when it was operational whether I could take an aircraft in but as I recall there wasn't a chance.
As to opening it up again for fixed wing (it's about 500m of grass) I don't think you'd get agreement from the council especially as the 27 threshold is not far from a busy main road (and a few houses).
I'll have a look next time I'm in Great Yarmouth.....but not with a view to buying it.
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Yeah well the radar controllers only work mon - fri don't they (unless I've got out of date info) it's just weekends with no radar so they can't fly.
I think I read somewhere that radar services are 'contracted out' and the twit who assigned the contract didn't think they'd be needed at weekends 'cos it cost too much.
I think I read somewhere that radar services are 'contracted out' and the twit who assigned the contract didn't think they'd be needed at weekends 'cos it cost too much.
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Am I missing something? What kind of radar surveillance is needed for a bunch of up round and down operations? Which ATC gliders wandered far enough away from mummy to be of any interest to anyone else? My airmaps clearly show gliding sites (a big double cross) and 'areas of intense gliding activity'. Why would anyone in the GA or RAF wander into these zones except in an emergency. Is there going to be any AEF activity at gliding sites now that all the aircraft are U/S?
Only twice in my career in gliding did we have any intrusions - at Meir a helicopter pilot who was lost and making a precautionary landing in fog - and the day at North Weald when a heavy mistook our field for Stansted (I think our runway might have been longer than theirs) and was down to 400 ft before he realised his mistake. What good was radar doing that day?
Only twice in my career in gliding did we have any intrusions - at Meir a helicopter pilot who was lost and making a precautionary landing in fog - and the day at North Weald when a heavy mistook our field for Stansted (I think our runway might have been longer than theirs) and was down to 400 ft before he realised his mistake. What good was radar doing that day?
I thought it was the AEF for which ATC (radar?) was deemed necessary. If so, I cannot say that I am surprised. When Old Sarum was an RAF Station with a large grass airfield with no marked out runways, we used to operate ATC gliding and light aircraft together quite happily. In fact, several of us did our PPL training when ATC gliding was taking place with no problems and no air traffic control.
Then, during an Easter course, in moves the AEF with their Chipmunks and and their own air traffic controller. Gliding had to stop whenever there was a Chipmunk movement within 5 miles. The gliding instructors and cadets were getting very frustrated as the launch rate was so poor that any serious training that week was looking impossible. The poor controller tried to be flexible and let one Chipmunk take off with a T31 well established on the winch launch. If the AEF pilot had done what most of us were trained to do, keeping straight until 400', I am sure that there would have been no problem. However, for some reason, the Chipmunk pilot carried out a hard left turn much lower than this and flew straight into the launch cable. Fortunately, the cadet in the back seat was completely unhurt. The glider was unaffected.
Depending on the airfield, all it needs is some local rules to which all parties sign.
Then, during an Easter course, in moves the AEF with their Chipmunks and and their own air traffic controller. Gliding had to stop whenever there was a Chipmunk movement within 5 miles. The gliding instructors and cadets were getting very frustrated as the launch rate was so poor that any serious training that week was looking impossible. The poor controller tried to be flexible and let one Chipmunk take off with a T31 well established on the winch launch. If the AEF pilot had done what most of us were trained to do, keeping straight until 400', I am sure that there would have been no problem. However, for some reason, the Chipmunk pilot carried out a hard left turn much lower than this and flew straight into the launch cable. Fortunately, the cadet in the back seat was completely unhurt. The glider was unaffected.
Depending on the airfield, all it needs is some local rules to which all parties sign.
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It's possibly to do with the former VR(T) Officers that fly them now being renewed as Queens' Commission for Air Cadets - the new "plastic" commission. The problem is that G Reg aircraft flow by VR(T)'s who maybe did not hold a CAA Licence but were covered by a waiver allowing RAF Officers to fly them within RAF Rules/Pilot ratings etc.,. But new Commission is not regarded as an RAF Officer commission thus illegal for RAFAC Commission to fly the G Reg Babcock Tutors . There may be another reason, but this one the Commandant DOES know about as they've had a lot of issues created by this stupid plastic imitation commission including lots of resignations !Even she says, they wouldn't have started it if they had realised the problems it created . So who knows, maybe another own goal ???But she has got a CBE for her role in cocking up the flying side of AIR Cadets,- perhaps think of a new name for them instead so as to satisfy the Advertising Standards legal description etc ??
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AEF pilots retain their VR(T) Commisions and did not transfer onto the new Cadet Forces Commission for the very reasons of accountability under the Armed Forces Act 2006.
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Let's go back a few years when the RAF managed to kill some children in mid-air collisions. Any sensible person would look to manage that risk, regardless of whether little Jonny's mum signed a bit of paper that morning. Of course many of us are speculating about the latest grounding but it's not entirely unreasonable for someone to play the red card if they aren't convinced about the risk they are being asked to sign-off.
Regardless, this is an RAF issue and not their customer, HQ Air Cadets.
Regardless, this is an RAF issue and not their customer, HQ Air Cadets.
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Quote......WOW, yes, you could probably sell them for those figures to that particular market but would any club in the UK or elsewhere in the world buy one knowing their history? - or lack of history as records have been disposed of - too much time and money to be invested (not £100K admittedly but still too much for the average club).
I can look at the F700 for any Viking I've flown and know to the minute the hours flown and the exact number of launches.
Quote.....But, until they're actually sold off neither you or I won't know what the interest will be or what price they'll achieve because let's face it, the G103 isn't the most inspiring basic 2 seater to fly, central and eastern Europe prefer the Puchacz
The only reason there's lots of Puchacz flying is cost constraints. Give them the option of a Acro over a Puchacz and it would be Acro every time
I can look at the F700 for any Viking I've flown and know to the minute the hours flown and the exact number of launches.
Quote.....But, until they're actually sold off neither you or I won't know what the interest will be or what price they'll achieve because let's face it, the G103 isn't the most inspiring basic 2 seater to fly, central and eastern Europe prefer the Puchacz
The only reason there's lots of Puchacz flying is cost constraints. Give them the option of a Acro over a Puchacz and it would be Acro every time
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WOW - I'm not disputing that total hours/launches may be known but the fact remains, and it is a fact acknowledged by 2FTS/MoD, that these aircraft have an incomplete maintenance history.
There are currently two threads running on PPRUNE concerning RAF aircraft where maintenance practices, diversifying from the manufacturers procedures, have resulted in significant instances - one a 3+ year 'pause' in air cadet gliding, the other an ejection seat malfunction.
And with that, up to the point that they're inspected, repaired where required due to undocumented, unapproved repairs and modifications, their value remains questionable.
Regarding G103 (in all its incarnations) v Puchacz - in the context of Air Cadet training, the Puchacz is unsuitable, it's not as robust as the Grob, it doesn't have the winch speed latitude and it has its stall/spin characteristic.
But, in my opinion, the Puchacz handles far better, is much nicer to fly, has better airbrakes and is a much better stall/spin trainer, the G103 feels leaden by comparison, especially trying to aerobat it.
K21 would have been the best choice for Air Cadet gliding but as has already been said, it was never going to be.
There are currently two threads running on PPRUNE concerning RAF aircraft where maintenance practices, diversifying from the manufacturers procedures, have resulted in significant instances - one a 3+ year 'pause' in air cadet gliding, the other an ejection seat malfunction.
And with that, up to the point that they're inspected, repaired where required due to undocumented, unapproved repairs and modifications, their value remains questionable.
Regarding G103 (in all its incarnations) v Puchacz - in the context of Air Cadet training, the Puchacz is unsuitable, it's not as robust as the Grob, it doesn't have the winch speed latitude and it has its stall/spin characteristic.
But, in my opinion, the Puchacz handles far better, is much nicer to fly, has better airbrakes and is a much better stall/spin trainer, the G103 feels leaden by comparison, especially trying to aerobat it.
K21 would have been the best choice for Air Cadet gliding but as has already been said, it was never going to be.
Last edited by squawking 7700; 25th Jan 2018 at 06:33.
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[QUOTE=Olympia 463;10030370]Am I missing something? What kind of radar surveillance is needed for a bunch of up round and down operations? Which ATC gliders wandered far enough away from mummy to be of any interest to anyone else? ....... Yep looks like you did, the thread has moved on to speculation regarding the sudden stopping of AEF flying in Grob 115 Tutors announced late last Friday 19 Jan 2018 They do not require a radar service either though the receipt of one is recommended. I have occasionally encountered and joined ATC gliders in thermal and wave many tens of miles from the nearest ATC launch site. Mummy was nowhere to be seen.
Chevvron - you know what they say - how do you end up a millionaire in aviation.......start with ten million.
I know North Denes, and I've thought of asking when it was operational whether I could take an aircraft in but as I recall there wasn't a chance.
As to opening it up again for fixed wing (it's about 500m of grass) I don't think you'd get agreement from the council especially as the 27 threshold is not far from a busy main road (and a few houses).
I'll have a look next time I'm in Great Yarmouth.....but not with a view to buying it.
I know North Denes, and I've thought of asking when it was operational whether I could take an aircraft in but as I recall there wasn't a chance.
As to opening it up again for fixed wing (it's about 500m of grass) I don't think you'd get agreement from the council especially as the 27 threshold is not far from a busy main road (and a few houses).
I'll have a look next time I'm in Great Yarmouth.....but not with a view to buying it.
I think the reason it's been rotary only for the last coupe of resurrections is because the airfield was operated unlicensed by the helicopter operators but with licensed ATC and still had iaps for the helicopters.
I know of a chap with a PC12 who asked about 8 years ago if he could go in there in spite of the short main runway; naturally he was refused.
You could still operate aero tows, SLMG/TMG and microlights there even with the short main runway though.
Wikipedia gives the runway lengths as 09/27 480m and 18/36 360m. For comparison, Netherthorpe is licensed 06/24 553m and 18/36 382m so not a lot of difference.
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chevvron,
I'm fairly familiar with Netherthorpe and at least North Denes is flat (Netherthorpe's 'arrestor' system, aka the hedge, has been put to good use several times).
I guess anyone on here would hope that North Denes will remain an airfield but that'll be for the new owner and the council to decide.
I think it's up for about £2M so it would take a shrewd investor to make it pay, some good facilities there though for aviation or other businesses (but then there's lots of unoccupied (and new) industrial space on Great Yarmouth's industrial estates).
Would there be enough custom for a flying school?
Back to Air Cadet gliding and at the current rate of recovery it'll be at least another two years before all 60 Vikings are available, there's time for a couple of defence reviews along the way.
I'm fairly familiar with Netherthorpe and at least North Denes is flat (Netherthorpe's 'arrestor' system, aka the hedge, has been put to good use several times).
I guess anyone on here would hope that North Denes will remain an airfield but that'll be for the new owner and the council to decide.
I think it's up for about £2M so it would take a shrewd investor to make it pay, some good facilities there though for aviation or other businesses (but then there's lots of unoccupied (and new) industrial space on Great Yarmouth's industrial estates).
Would there be enough custom for a flying school?
Back to Air Cadet gliding and at the current rate of recovery it'll be at least another two years before all 60 Vikings are available, there's time for a couple of defence reviews along the way.
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But without the rest of the paperwork being correct & up-to-date the number of hours & launches is pretty useless. And given the problems with the rest of the paperwork, I find myself wondering how reliable the F700 is?
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cats - Indeed, these aircraft's recent maintenance programme and history has been akin to that of a back street garage.......but without the history, because that's acknowledged (by 2FTS) as destroyed - who let the contractor destroy essential paperwork? going back to market value, without that provenance the asset value is markedly reduced.
Good stuff about aircraft paperwork, but we must always remember that to be able to conduct and verify maintenance and servicing the aircraft must first be declared airworthy, as that is what facilitates serviceability.
It was not a case of simply sending the gliders to whatever repair shop. First, the airworthiness baseline had to be stabilised. To MoD/MAA, that is a major task, especially when there is no Safety Case and at the same time trying to hide the fact the failings apply pan-MoD - a political consideration post-Haddon-Cave. That would have slowed process. I cannot speak for the quality or performance at the various contractors, but their task is relatively insignificant.
It was not a case of simply sending the gliders to whatever repair shop. First, the airworthiness baseline had to be stabilised. To MoD/MAA, that is a major task, especially when there is no Safety Case and at the same time trying to hide the fact the failings apply pan-MoD - a political consideration post-Haddon-Cave. That would have slowed process. I cannot speak for the quality or performance at the various contractors, but their task is relatively insignificant.