Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Air Cadets grounded?

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Air Cadets grounded?

Old 24th May 2014, 09:23
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 73
Longer Ron

The reasons are known and touched on throughout this thread, the Engineering procedures and records aren't robust enough to demonstrate (should the worst happen) that the airframe was air worthy in the first place.

The BGA clubs are complying with many new rules too but its a lot less obvious when you have 2 aircraft to make compliant rather than 150.
Tingger is offline  
Old 24th May 2014, 09:34
  #142 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Great Britain
Age: 53
Posts: 270
By the way the BGA's 2013 safety review is here: http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/doc...iew2013web.pdf
One example caught my eye - "Glider took off with the elevator disconnected; the glider was rigged by a group of visitors without any single person taking responsibility; no positive control checks and no DI."

Also from the BGA website dated Mar 14:

In the last four years 10 flights have been made in gliders with disconnected controls (three elevator, four aileron, one flap, one airbrake, one trim). Two flights have been made with an insecure tailplane and one flight with an insecure main pin. Other flights with improperly rigged gliders include two with missing drag pins, a disconnected hotelier, missing shims, a drag pin inserted with the handle instead of the barrel, and a missing wing tip. These events led to one fatality. There could easily have been more. One glider was taken to the launch point with the wing main pin on the pilot's seat. One insecure tailplane was detected just prior to launch. 29 canopies detached in flight. There were 19 other instances of inadequate preparation for flight, mainly unlocked airbrakes, and loose articles

Can you imagine the outcry if this happened on a VGS? The Coroner and media would have a lot to say. Please, I am not trying to point-score between VGS and BGA, but this indicates why your proposed use of BGA clubs would not work without radical change.
Corporal Clott is offline  
Old 24th May 2014, 09:40
  #143 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: France
Age: 76
Posts: 6,385
CC- but this would have been a "private" not a "club" aircraft. Both BGA clubs I have been involved with recently are meticulous in their maintenance, DIs and control of flying.
Wander00 is offline  
Old 24th May 2014, 09:41
  #144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: northofwhereiusedtobe
Posts: 1,213
Tingger
I still work in military aviation maintenance/operations !
So I can have a reasonable guess at some of the issues,I just worry that (and it really depends on how the VGS staff 'perceive' what the real issues are) because this grounding is not caused by a 'force majeur' but (presumably) by HQ staff + the MAA - how many staff will remain if the grounding really is until september !

rgds LR
longer ron is online now  
Old 24th May 2014, 09:44
  #145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: northofwhereiusedtobe
Posts: 1,213
Cpl Clott

Can you imagine the outcry if this happened on a VGS? The Coroner and media would have a lot to say. Please, I am not trying to point-score between VGS and BGA, but this indicates why your proposed use of BGA clubs would not work without radical change.
I am aware of the BGA accident statistics but the statistics you quote will be for privately owned gliders and not for Gliding Club 2 seaters !

rgds LR
longer ron is online now  
Old 24th May 2014, 09:52
  #146 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Great Britain
Age: 53
Posts: 270
Wander00/LR

but this would have been a "private" not a "club" aircraft.
But even "private" gliders operate under a Club environment under the supervision of a full-cat at most clubs I've flown from.

Please, I'm not trying to [email protected] off the BGA, they're a great and well respected organisation. It's just that if we wanted to take Longer Ron's suggestion of replacing the VGS activity by using BGA clubs, then I suggest we would have to change practices and cultures to do 100% youth flying at such clubs.

My opinion and definately no agenda.

CPL Clott
Corporal Clott is offline  
Old 24th May 2014, 09:55
  #147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 73
Cpl Clott

they already are trialing the use of BGA clubs to fill the gaps in the vgs footprint lee-on-solent has already taken cadets from southwest regon.

LR the "pause" really is until September at the earliest this is for delivering training to cadets though and 22group is being engaged to provide what it can to give cadets flying over this period. The staff flying issue and currency is a little different the instructor development courses are still running ironically because they use many BGA aircraft and similar initiatives are being looked at by SO1 gliding in his recovery plan
Tingger is offline  
Old 24th May 2014, 09:59
  #148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 4
One example caught my eye - "Glider took off with the elevator disconnected; the glider was rigged by a group of visitors without any single person taking responsibility; no positive control checks and no DI."

I got airborne in an AC Viking and during flight the trim mechanism became disconnected. The control worked correctly at the BF and for the FRC checks. It turned out that the safety clip had not be secured and the link fell apart on the launch. People make mistakes and sometimes they will have unfortunate results. We strive to stop these events happening but humans are human.

Spares will always be a problem for the Grob 103 as Grob Aerospace are no longer in existence.

I am very well aware of the responsibility of flying other peoples children and it is right and proper that great care is taken. I can make my own judgement about the level of engineering competence on gliders that I own/fly, parents of AC do not have that option, they have to take it on trust. Having said that when proving that a job has been done properly becomes a greater priority than doing the job properly there are bound to be problems. The Grob Acro is still a glider, and a good one, even if the brake master cylinder is a master cylinder for a BMW motor cycle with most of the lever sawn off.
althalus401 is offline  
Old 24th May 2014, 10:00
  #149 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: northofwhereiusedtobe
Posts: 1,213
But even "private" gliders operate under a Club environment under the supervision of a full-cat at most clubs I've flown from.
Agreed but that supervision is usually on the flying side rather than rigging/DI's etc.

they already are trialing the use of BGA clubs to fill the gaps in the vgs footprint lee-on-solent has already taken cadets from southwest regon.
And there is the irony of the situation gentlemen !
longer ron is online now  
Old 24th May 2014, 10:02
  #150 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 37
Don't think stuff will be sorted by September at all. For years AEFs have had full time raf guys, full time engineering and ATC etc only pilot volunteers while VGS volunteers have slaved away and had to do everything themselves, spend hours doing paperwork and engineering each day and run airfield etc. they've had enough after years of being shafted and neglected, if you want VGS like RAF squadrons and AEF they will have to put staff in.
Jimmyjerez is offline  
Old 24th May 2014, 10:03
  #151 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: northofwhereiusedtobe
Posts: 1,213
The Grob Acro is still a glider, and a good one, even if the brake master cylinder is a master cylinder for a BMW motor cycle with most of the lever sawn off.
ISTR that the brake master cylinder on the SA Bulldog was the same part number as my Hillman Hunter GLS clutch master cyl

Last edited by longer ron; 24th May 2014 at 10:11. Reason: adding 'clutch'
longer ron is online now  
Old 24th May 2014, 10:09
  #152 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: northofwhereiusedtobe
Posts: 1,213
It's just that if we wanted to take Longer Ron's suggestion of replacing the VGS activity by using BGA clubs, then I suggest we would have to change practices and cultures to do 100% youth flying at such clubs.
Not really my suggestion CC but I can see it as a possible outcome if this drags on past June !
longer ron is online now  
Old 24th May 2014, 10:29
  #153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 73
JJ

The problem doesn't sit with the volunteers and what they have been doing i.e. what theyve been told to do. It is with the full time engineer practices and procedures and from what i hear they drafting in more engineers to help solve the problem
Tingger is offline  
Old 24th May 2014, 10:38
  #154 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: France
Age: 76
Posts: 6,385
LR - But I bet they paid squillions more for the one that went into the Bulldog than the one in the car
Wander00 is offline  
Old 24th May 2014, 14:17
  #155 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Old Hampshire
Age: 64
Posts: 562
I really hope they get the problem sorted sooner rather than later. This grounding is costing me money. My weekends at the VGS normally keep me away from the shops and for the past 30 years my annual holidays have been VGS courses, it looks like I might have to spend money this year.
VX275 is offline  
Old 25th May 2014, 12:47
  #156 (permalink)  

Gentleman Aviator
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Teetering Towers - somewhere in the Shires
Age: 70
Posts: 3,394
BGA trial - which is happening - could only ever be a temporary and partial fix.

Quite simply, BGA do not have the capacity to provide the GICs and GSs that the (when fully functioning!!) VGS system can do and is under remit to do.

In theory - IIRC - that's one opportunity per cadet per year. You do the math(s)!
teeteringhead is offline  
Old 26th May 2014, 00:27
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 73
At least the gliding simulator program will be accelerated to compensate for the loss of flying shame hardly any of the units have accommodation to house such an expensive piece of kit.
Tingger is offline  
Old 26th May 2014, 22:20
  #158 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 76
Latest from OC2FTS -

"My intent, subject to meeting the currency fleet requirement, is to have a limited return to cadet gliding by Sep 14 at the earliest."

Full transcript will be found on Bader Sharepoint when uploaded.....
romeo bravo is offline  
Old 27th May 2014, 22:31
  #159 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: nr Ely, Cambs
Age: 56
Posts: 364
Some talk of extra Tutor Flights for cadets to compensate, don't know how there are not enough to go around as it is.
brokenlink is offline  
Old 28th May 2014, 07:11
  #160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,028
Extra flights in general where possible I believe. I hope someone high enough up is going to provide the resources to e.g. get all cadets on camp at suitable stations airborne in something. Especially as I'll be on camp at ODI...
tmmorris is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.