Air Cadets grounded?
So let's get this straight. After 19 months all we have is 4 Vigilants, no Vikings and the renaming of OC 2FTS to "Commandant". RAF Syerston - Homepage
Not very good is it? I suspect that the mooted meetings in the next fortnight will only contain bad news.
From the website link "Our vision is "Promoting Excellence in Gliding Instruction" - really? What on earth makes you think that!
iRaven
Not very good is it? I suspect that the mooted meetings in the next fortnight will only contain bad news.
From the website link "Our vision is "Promoting Excellence in Gliding Instruction" - really? What on earth makes you think that!
iRaven
Website Hype Syerston
Ah well i got that bit correct big time.
38,000 movements !!
Even mentions Guy Gibson (who certainly would not have been amused at this current situation)
They will not be able to 'rewrite history' around this ongoing nonsense,but i suspect a very large carpet is even now being ordered.
38,000 movements !!
Even mentions Guy Gibson (who certainly would not have been amused at this current situation)
They will not be able to 'rewrite history' around this ongoing nonsense,but i suspect a very large carpet is even now being ordered.
I bet they now regret kicking out the RAFGSA's Four Counties Glding Club in 2004: Four Counties Gliding Club
I heard from a guy who was on a JSAT(G) course that they were looking at options to move the gliding centre from Halton to Syerston. Let's hope that is not the case for a variety of reasons (no accomodation, no ridge soaring, congested circuit (38,000 movements) and a team that has mismanaged their own air cadet gliding capability looking to mismanage a great set up from Bicester/Halton).
As a starter, why don't they approach the RAFGSA and restart the Four Counties Gliding Club at Syerston after they were kicked out of Wittering only to find that the UAS/AEF can't fly at the weekends anyway (another F-up in my opinion!)?
Why, of why, are we surrounded by apparent incompetent decisions in the Flying Trg world? MFTS, UAS, AEF and VGS have all been overshadowed by apparent incompetence in recent years.
The B Word
I heard from a guy who was on a JSAT(G) course that they were looking at options to move the gliding centre from Halton to Syerston. Let's hope that is not the case for a variety of reasons (no accomodation, no ridge soaring, congested circuit (38,000 movements) and a team that has mismanaged their own air cadet gliding capability looking to mismanage a great set up from Bicester/Halton).
As a starter, why don't they approach the RAFGSA and restart the Four Counties Gliding Club at Syerston after they were kicked out of Wittering only to find that the UAS/AEF can't fly at the weekends anyway (another F-up in my opinion!)?
Why, of why, are we surrounded by apparent incompetent decisions in the Flying Trg world? MFTS, UAS, AEF and VGS have all been overshadowed by apparent incompetence in recent years.
The B Word
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I would expect the RAFP to be involved in an investigation to see if this sorry situation is the result of gross negligence or criminal action. There has to be some follow up to this mess where individuals are accountable for what they did or did not do.
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"But lets not forget that once rewritten, the saga of the flying pause may see Cdt AC knighted and OC 2 FTS awarded the air force cross. Included in the citations will be 'decisive leadership', 'force-wide cost savings' and 'exemplary safety implementations'."
If this was the Second World War, I'd recommend OC 2FTS for the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaf Cluster for services to the Luftwaffe.
If this was the Second World War, I'd recommend OC 2FTS for the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaf Cluster for services to the Luftwaffe.
It is not the military leadership that sparked this crisis, it was the failure of those maintaining the fleet to meet the basic standards of technical compliance and record keeping.
By the way, can we remove the question mark from the thread title now.
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Sky sports
The RAF did try to get the contractor to do something but all that happened was meeting after meeting but no progress towards serviceable airframes, eventually the military got sick of the lack of progress and is now working with another contractor who have a number of airframes more or less ready to go from a technical point of view but things are taking a while to get signed off by the type certificate holder who have a rather slow paperwork system.
The RAF did try to get the contractor to do something but all that happened was meeting after meeting but no progress
And, if the contractor is at fault, there will be a legal case and the RAF will be able to afford a new glider fleet with the compensation pay-out?
No?.......thought not!
From the RAF Syerston website
Lets just have a closer look at that "framework"
Just Culture? - Not really. Can't see there being any interviews without coffee for the failings that have occurred.
Safe flying operations? - very safe, I would say, (by not flying)
Airworthy platforms? - No
Fun? - No
So there we have it. An activity that meets 1 out of 4 categories within a framework!
2 FTS Mission Statement
2 Flying Training School delivers highly-trained Qualified Gliding Instructors, who provide the ACO with character-building flying opportunities that allow Cadets to develop soft life skills and a practical interest in aviation. This activity is bounded within a framework of a Just Culture, safe flying operations, airworthy platforms and fun!
2 Flying Training School delivers highly-trained Qualified Gliding Instructors, who provide the ACO with character-building flying opportunities that allow Cadets to develop soft life skills and a practical interest in aviation. This activity is bounded within a framework of a Just Culture, safe flying operations, airworthy platforms and fun!
Just Culture? - Not really. Can't see there being any interviews without coffee for the failings that have occurred.
Safe flying operations? - very safe, I would say, (by not flying)
Airworthy platforms? - No
Fun? - No
So there we have it. An activity that meets 1 out of 4 categories within a framework!
"who have a number of airframes more or less ready to go from a technical point of view"
Eh? From a 'technical point of view' its either 'ready to go' or it isn't.
Eh? From a 'technical point of view' its either 'ready to go' or it isn't.
That's an interesting document LJ. But while things were far from satisfactory, do we know how many Vikings and Vigilantes crashed because of sub-standard maintenance, because I think it's probably somewhere around zero. One thing we can all agree on - it really is FUBAR, or is SNAFU normal in the 21st Century RAF?
BTW Does anyone know why so many names were redacted?
BTW Does anyone know why so many names were redacted?
Last edited by DaveUnwin; 18th Oct 2015 at 19:09. Reason: As always, dodgy grammar!
Dave
You may have heard of the phrase "past performance is not an indicator of future performance"? Just because the Viggis/Vikings hadn't crashed in recent memory then it didn't mean they were safe - remember the Nimrod? Never had a mid air explosion before its fatal one in 2006 and it had been flying since 1969. Before 2 Sep 06 the Nimrod loss rate due to mid air fuel fires was also zero - it then had the fatal one in Sep 06 and also had another serious leak in mid air in Nov 07, shortly after AAR was suspended for good on the MR2 and the type was retired just over 2 years later.
Aircraft can lose their airworthiness real quick!
LJ
You may have heard of the phrase "past performance is not an indicator of future performance"? Just because the Viggis/Vikings hadn't crashed in recent memory then it didn't mean they were safe - remember the Nimrod? Never had a mid air explosion before its fatal one in 2006 and it had been flying since 1969. Before 2 Sep 06 the Nimrod loss rate due to mid air fuel fires was also zero - it then had the fatal one in Sep 06 and also had another serious leak in mid air in Nov 07, shortly after AAR was suspended for good on the MR2 and the type was retired just over 2 years later.
Aircraft can lose their airworthiness real quick!
LJ
LJ - good point, well made! You are exactly right of course (serves me right for posting in a hurry). As the Romans used to say "Post in festinatione, pœnitentiam in otio".
I apologise.
Any ideas why so many names were redacted?
SkySports - Harsh, but Fair.
The B Word, you're not wrong - that Four Counties debacle was a real Clusterfeck!
I apologise.
Any ideas why so many names were redacted?
SkySports - Harsh, but Fair.
The B Word, you're not wrong - that Four Counties debacle was a real Clusterfeck!
Nimrod AGAIN
Sorry; the Nimrod issue (serious as it was) has no reflection on the issues leading to the ATC foul up. The ATC had two NEW fleets of simple aircraft that did not; or would never be required to A:- Go to War,or B:- be modded for a purposed not originally required. This is failure of a basic TECH nature; it is not rocket science or so difficult that a degree course is required.The RAF already had the expertise for operating 'simple machines' within the RAFGSA, so there is no excuse for not understanding what sort of 'system' would work.in fact they only had to follow the example of the old MGSP to give them a clue.
No the bean counters won the day, but by golly lost the war and the whole campaign.
Easiest option is to sell both fleets (they would be snapped up as opposed to snap off) and re-equip under a normal servicing program.
As they already have the winches its a no brainer, and the SLG element has plenty of options.
And why we are on the subject keep the engines simple (no gearbox) and the weight down.A BASIC trainer is all that is required not a high performance one.
Actually a Pobjoy gearbox is very good,but a 'new' A65 would do fine and so simple.
No the bean counters won the day, but by golly lost the war and the whole campaign.
Easiest option is to sell both fleets (they would be snapped up as opposed to snap off) and re-equip under a normal servicing program.
As they already have the winches its a no brainer, and the SLG element has plenty of options.
And why we are on the subject keep the engines simple (no gearbox) and the weight down.A BASIC trainer is all that is required not a high performance one.
Actually a Pobjoy gearbox is very good,but a 'new' A65 would do fine and so simple.
Last edited by POBJOY; 18th Oct 2015 at 22:33.
soft life skills and a practical interest in aviation
If so, it must have worked as I am still gliding, flying, instructing, and tugging.
I just feel so sorry for the young lads and lasses who are now being denied that fantastic "launch" into a lifetime of aviation.
Dave
No need to apologise - this is a discussion forum after all? I'm guessing that the names of those not commonly known as linked to posts have been redacted. OC 2FTS, Commandant Air Cadets and AOC 22(Trg) Gp are all well known.
That's my guess, anyway. Yes, the Four Counties could have moved to Syerston for at least this last summer and possibly for a while yet.
Pobjoy
Of course the Nimrod is different to a glider/motorglider but the basic princiiples of airworthiness are the same. Also, if the fleets are sold off they won't be worth much as they won't have any paperwork trail to back up their condition for transfer to the civil register. Unless you know different?
LJ
No need to apologise - this is a discussion forum after all? I'm guessing that the names of those not commonly known as linked to posts have been redacted. OC 2FTS, Commandant Air Cadets and AOC 22(Trg) Gp are all well known.
That's my guess, anyway. Yes, the Four Counties could have moved to Syerston for at least this last summer and possibly for a while yet.
Pobjoy
Of course the Nimrod is different to a glider/motorglider but the basic princiiples of airworthiness are the same. Also, if the fleets are sold off they won't be worth much as they won't have any paperwork trail to back up their condition for transfer to the civil register. Unless you know different?
LJ
Two Season Pause
Sorry LJ but this issue has not even been sorted yet,and two seasons worth of Cadets have been binned ! (what price that)
A new slimmed down fleet is the best option without WASTING MORE MONEY proving they c.....d up.
Draw a line and get going again whilst there is an organisation left to benefit.
Every week that goes by is costing loads of money and producing nothing,so why bother.
When compared to the overall MOD spend this is trifling and it is even more galling to throw more away chasing tails.
Move on, get flying, get some credibility back into the organisation.
How much do you think they spend on all the publicity and websites,plus the salaries of the 'crats' that fouled up in the first place.The actual flying is good value compared to that.
By the way were are the Munster V G winches (must watch the disposal sites)
A new slimmed down fleet is the best option without WASTING MORE MONEY proving they c.....d up.
Draw a line and get going again whilst there is an organisation left to benefit.
Every week that goes by is costing loads of money and producing nothing,so why bother.
When compared to the overall MOD spend this is trifling and it is even more galling to throw more away chasing tails.
Move on, get flying, get some credibility back into the organisation.
How much do you think they spend on all the publicity and websites,plus the salaries of the 'crats' that fouled up in the first place.The actual flying is good value compared to that.
By the way were are the Munster V G winches (must watch the disposal sites)