Air Cadets grounded?
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@DaveUnwin
That's the thing as I understand it - they didn't have records of what had been 'pranged' or not. Which meant a full survey.
I agree these are non-complex airframes. But MoD has it's own processes and the ACO has to follow them to obtain release to service.
That's the world they are in................
Arc
That's the thing as I understand it - they didn't have records of what had been 'pranged' or not. Which meant a full survey.
I agree these are non-complex airframes. But MoD has it's own processes and the ACO has to follow them to obtain release to service.
That's the world they are in................
Arc
Ahhhh, thanks for that Arc - your post does help make sense of something I've been trying to wrap my head around.
If they literally don't know which ones have had a bump and which haven't then that really would complicate matters.
If they literally don't know which ones have had a bump and which haven't then that really would complicate matters.
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Self Build & Fly?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slingsby_T.21
Just a suggestion but in doing some digging I noticed a handful of T21s were self built and felt Cadets would get far more value from gliding if they actually built a few of their own aircraft under supervision.
Value coming from team skills, tool skills, patience, persistence and a better understanding of aero engineering and aerodynamics.
Sadly I could not find a suitable training glider kit and I assume certification cost and complexity plus liability issues have stopped this.
So has anyone got the plans for a T21, a few aluminium struts, plywood and canvass? Would the BGA, MOD and MAA object or co operate?
Just a suggestion but in doing some digging I noticed a handful of T21s were self built and felt Cadets would get far more value from gliding if they actually built a few of their own aircraft under supervision.
Value coming from team skills, tool skills, patience, persistence and a better understanding of aero engineering and aerodynamics.
Sadly I could not find a suitable training glider kit and I assume certification cost and complexity plus liability issues have stopped this.
So has anyone got the plans for a T21, a few aluminium struts, plywood and canvass? Would the BGA, MOD and MAA object or co operate?
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Bigpants
You clearly don't undertand the ACO Gliding setup at all...................either equipment or objectives.
Arc
You clearly don't undertand the ACO Gliding setup at all...................either equipment or objectives.
Arc
Last edited by Arclite01; 21st Sep 2015 at 14:18. Reason: Gliding Setup
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Open Minded
Do you understand the difference between past and future?
Royal Aeronautical Society | Ercall Wood
The grounding is an opportunity to think of new ideas for getting cadets engaged and back in the air. It would be a pity if nothing new was considered.
Royal Aeronautical Society | Ercall Wood
The grounding is an opportunity to think of new ideas for getting cadets engaged and back in the air. It would be a pity if nothing new was considered.
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@Bigpants
The ACO Gliding Operation is a military training operation, with a structured and defined training programme.
The introduction of Random, non-standard, amateur built aircraft would not really achieve anything towards the flying task in the ACO Gliding world.
That's not to say that the encouragement of Cadets in other aviation activities is not required or beneficial and I am a supporter of the LAA YES. Just its output wouldn't fit into the VGS setup.
IMHO
Arc
Hat and coat....................
The ACO Gliding Operation is a military training operation, with a structured and defined training programme.
The introduction of Random, non-standard, amateur built aircraft would not really achieve anything towards the flying task in the ACO Gliding world.
That's not to say that the encouragement of Cadets in other aviation activities is not required or beneficial and I am a supporter of the LAA YES. Just its output wouldn't fit into the VGS setup.
IMHO
Arc
Hat and coat....................
Last edited by Arclite01; 21st Sep 2015 at 14:49. Reason: its output
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I have heard that a large number of 'gliders' have started to appear at a well-know aerospace company located close to Cambridge city centre. The said company is also the Design Authority for the Viking glider.
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I suspect they have been looking very carefully at the airframes and anything & everything has to be checked against the paperwork, so whilst they don't have motors, flaps & retractable u/c there is still plenty to have to check. An annual inspection can be done in a day on a simple glider, but this is much more.
I have no idea if all repairs or just undocumented or incorrectly documented ones have to be replaced...
I have no idea if all repairs or just undocumented or incorrectly documented ones have to be replaced...
There is an even quicker answer...
The RAF has 7x Gliding Clubs with the RAFGSA, 14x Flying Clubs with the RAFFCA and 1x Microlight Club with the RAFMA. So that is 22x CAA approved recreational clubs on MOD property and funded in part via the RAF Sports Board.
Now that Introductory Flights are allowed by the CAA/EASA by qualified pilots on type without remuneration but the cost of the flight paid, then the Air Cadet Org could fly an awful lot of Cadets in very short order with very little effort - IF they dropped their ridiculous stance on the experience requirements:
There is no way that the average VGS pilot has 500hrs total time and 300hrs as PIC and 60hrs in the last 12 months. So why this ridiculous requirement for a qulaified pilot, many with an ICAO standard licence?
It is over-controlling gold-plating idiocy like this that is killing the Air Cdet Organisation plus when the Govt is trying to expand the whole Cadet Forces in general. When you consider RAF based recreational/sporting flying clubs they are IDEAL in that they are assured by the CAA and suoervised on the military estate to their own requirements. If they don't like what they see they can stop it immediately. Plus, there is an untapped resource to help the Clubs with the VGS staff that are also unable to fly at present.
Beggars belief!
B Word
The RAF has 7x Gliding Clubs with the RAFGSA, 14x Flying Clubs with the RAFFCA and 1x Microlight Club with the RAFMA. So that is 22x CAA approved recreational clubs on MOD property and funded in part via the RAF Sports Board.
Now that Introductory Flights are allowed by the CAA/EASA by qualified pilots on type without remuneration but the cost of the flight paid, then the Air Cadet Org could fly an awful lot of Cadets in very short order with very little effort - IF they dropped their ridiculous stance on the experience requirements:
The pilot holds at least a PPL and has a minimum of 500 hours flying experience, of which 300 hours, and at least 60 hours in the last 12 months, are as first pilot.
h. The flights are not to include any of the following:
(1) Stalling and spinning.
(2) Aerobatics (but see para 4).
(3) Low flying.
(4) Practice forced landings.
(5) Practice emergencies of any kind.
(6) Short landings.
RELAXATION OF CONDITIONS
3. A Regional Commandant or CCF Sect Cdr may, based on his knowledge of the pilot and aircraft, relax the criteria at 2g above to a minimum in one or all of the following criteria:
a. Total hours: 250.
b. Total First Pilot hours: 150.
c. Hours on type: 20.
d. Currency: 10 hours in past 3 months, and 3 landings in past month on the aircraft type in which the cadet is to fly.
4. Additionally, a Regional Commandant or CCF Sect Cdr may, based on his knowledge of the pilot and aircraft, permit aerobatics to be carried out provided that:
a. The pilot holds a current Aerobatic Certificate issued by the Aircraft Operators and Pilots Association (AOPA), or an equivalent approved authorisation.
b. Parachutes are worn.
c.All recoveries are completed not below 3,000 feet above ground level.
h. The flights are not to include any of the following:
(1) Stalling and spinning.
(2) Aerobatics (but see para 4).
(3) Low flying.
(4) Practice forced landings.
(5) Practice emergencies of any kind.
(6) Short landings.
RELAXATION OF CONDITIONS
3. A Regional Commandant or CCF Sect Cdr may, based on his knowledge of the pilot and aircraft, relax the criteria at 2g above to a minimum in one or all of the following criteria:
a. Total hours: 250.
b. Total First Pilot hours: 150.
c. Hours on type: 20.
d. Currency: 10 hours in past 3 months, and 3 landings in past month on the aircraft type in which the cadet is to fly.
4. Additionally, a Regional Commandant or CCF Sect Cdr may, based on his knowledge of the pilot and aircraft, permit aerobatics to be carried out provided that:
a. The pilot holds a current Aerobatic Certificate issued by the Aircraft Operators and Pilots Association (AOPA), or an equivalent approved authorisation.
b. Parachutes are worn.
c.All recoveries are completed not below 3,000 feet above ground level.
It is over-controlling gold-plating idiocy like this that is killing the Air Cdet Organisation plus when the Govt is trying to expand the whole Cadet Forces in general. When you consider RAF based recreational/sporting flying clubs they are IDEAL in that they are assured by the CAA and suoervised on the military estate to their own requirements. If they don't like what they see they can stop it immediately. Plus, there is an untapped resource to help the Clubs with the VGS staff that are also unable to fly at present.
Beggars belief!
B Word
B word
I don't have the statistics to hand but the safety record of the VGSs is, probably(?) far better than the equivalent record for GSAs and civilian clubs.... and I've witnessed the latter in action!
The VGS world is far more regulated and for good reason.
BBK
I don't have the statistics to hand but the safety record of the VGSs is, probably(?) far better than the equivalent record for GSAs and civilian clubs.... and I've witnessed the latter in action!
The VGS world is far more regulated and for good reason.
BBK
BBK
Seeing as we're only intersted in 'risk to life', I am not aware of a single fatality in the RAFGSA, RAFFCA and RAFMA over the past 15 years of my knowledge of such organisations. Each Club has around 100 members (on average) and so 2,200 pilots have flown at least 22,000 hrs per year across all of the Clubs. Multiply that by 15 years and you get 330,000 flying hours without a fatality.
The current MoD fatal accident rate is around 1 per 50,000 flying hours not including operational losses. So this type of flying is at least 6 times safer than normal RAF trg flying.
So go figure...
Seeing as we're only intersted in 'risk to life', I am not aware of a single fatality in the RAFGSA, RAFFCA and RAFMA over the past 15 years of my knowledge of such organisations. Each Club has around 100 members (on average) and so 2,200 pilots have flown at least 22,000 hrs per year across all of the Clubs. Multiply that by 15 years and you get 330,000 flying hours without a fatality.
The current MoD fatal accident rate is around 1 per 50,000 flying hours not including operational losses. So this type of flying is at least 6 times safer than normal RAF trg flying.
So go figure...
B word
I was taking about VGS ops, not MOD. Tragically cadets have died in recent years but they were in Tutor aircraft not VGS ones. Not that I want to get into some sick contest about such matters.
However, at my local airfield the safety record of the VGS had been excellent in no small part to very close supervision and the level of training and oversight by CGS and CFS.
BBK
I was taking about VGS ops, not MOD. Tragically cadets have died in recent years but they were in Tutor aircraft not VGS ones. Not that I want to get into some sick contest about such matters.
However, at my local airfield the safety record of the VGS had been excellent in no small part to very close supervision and the level of training and oversight by CGS and CFS.
BBK
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Dave Unwin
In your post #520 you state that " was it really that difficult to look at the records of each aircraft and starting with the ones that have never been pranged or de-rigged..............?"
This shows that you have still failed to grasp the problem because these records had not been kept by the contractor and what has been kept are very incomplete, repairs have not been properly recorded both from a parts used and a compliance with approved data point of view and some have no record at all !
Add to this the fact that unlike metal airframes there is very little visual evidence of a repair with GRP construction
If the methods and techniques I was taught as an apprentice ( for large metal aircraft with GRP parts) had been used these these are totally unsuitable for GRP primary construction. As both the type certificate holder and maintaince contractor both come from a big metal aircraft with GRP bits background and the repairs have not been recorded properly it is not possible to see if first the glider has had repair work or if it has he correct techniques have been used without very close inspection by experienced staff.
Trying to use aircraft de-rigging as a filter for aircraft damage is unsound, gliders are de-rigged on a daily basis and so de-rigging records ( if they are available and I doubt it) will only tell you that the aircraft was de-rigged but not why. Most gliders arrive at the maintenance facility in a trailer for the routine annual check....... It is not an indicator of damage so to use de-rigging as an indicator of posable damage would be at the very least misleading.
This shows that you have still failed to grasp the problem because these records had not been kept by the contractor and what has been kept are very incomplete, repairs have not been properly recorded both from a parts used and a compliance with approved data point of view and some have no record at all !
Add to this the fact that unlike metal airframes there is very little visual evidence of a repair with GRP construction
If the methods and techniques I was taught as an apprentice ( for large metal aircraft with GRP parts) had been used these these are totally unsuitable for GRP primary construction. As both the type certificate holder and maintaince contractor both come from a big metal aircraft with GRP bits background and the repairs have not been recorded properly it is not possible to see if first the glider has had repair work or if it has he correct techniques have been used without very close inspection by experienced staff.
Trying to use aircraft de-rigging as a filter for aircraft damage is unsound, gliders are de-rigged on a daily basis and so de-rigging records ( if they are available and I doubt it) will only tell you that the aircraft was de-rigged but not why. Most gliders arrive at the maintenance facility in a trailer for the routine annual check....... It is not an indicator of damage so to use de-rigging as an indicator of posable damage would be at the very least misleading.
A&C, you say to me;- "In your post #520 you state that " was it really that difficult to look at the records of each aircraft and starting with the ones that have never been pranged or de-rigged..............?"
This shows that you have still failed to grasp the problem because these records had not been kept by the contractor and what has been kept are very incomplete, repairs have not been properly recorded both from a parts used and a compliance with approved data point of view and some have no record at all !"
Actually, it doesn't. What it actually shows is that either you didn't read, or don't understand, what I wrote.
Have another go, (but you don't need to give me a lecture about de-rigging. I've been gliding for 30 years and am an instructor, have owned several gliders and used to be the Manager of the Black Mountains GC).
Also, Arc has already explained about the shocking record keeping. It is truly a massive FUBAR, and when you combine it with the quite incredible time its taken to STILL not return ONE single solitary sailplane to service well, words fail me.
This shows that you have still failed to grasp the problem because these records had not been kept by the contractor and what has been kept are very incomplete, repairs have not been properly recorded both from a parts used and a compliance with approved data point of view and some have no record at all !"
Actually, it doesn't. What it actually shows is that either you didn't read, or don't understand, what I wrote.
Have another go, (but you don't need to give me a lecture about de-rigging. I've been gliding for 30 years and am an instructor, have owned several gliders and used to be the Manager of the Black Mountains GC).
Also, Arc has already explained about the shocking record keeping. It is truly a massive FUBAR, and when you combine it with the quite incredible time its taken to STILL not return ONE single solitary sailplane to service well, words fail me.
Last edited by DaveUnwin; 24th Sep 2015 at 20:14. Reason: Missed a bit!
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It is truly a massive FUBAR, and when you combine it with the quite incredible time its taken to STILL not return ONE single solitary sailplane to service well, words fail me.
Thing, I suspect you've just hit the nail on the thumb! I must admit I've been starting to think exactly that. Does the MoD even want Air Cadets to fly? When you consider this whole sorry saga and realise that, after 18 months, they've not managed to return one sailplane to service, it is hard not to get just a little suspicious.
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Add to that the ongoing programme with Skylaunch to dieselise the winches (or is that keep on keeping on 'cos the money's already spent?)...