Air Cadets grounded?
It appears that where there have been 'issues' with flying operations (including AEF) the resultant 'fix' has been to instigate more equipment fitment, and compulsory ATC requirement.
Again this has ignored the basic VFR rules that one must adopt a good look out rather than rely on equipment that means even more instruments to scan (inside the cockpit). The whole ATC radio thing also gives a false sense of security in the VFR regime of operations and ignores the basic VFR concept.
Again this has ignored the basic VFR rules that one must adopt a good look out rather than rely on equipment that means even more instruments to scan (inside the cockpit). The whole ATC radio thing also gives a false sense of security in the VFR regime of operations and ignores the basic VFR concept.
Funny, but I also fly on an AEF and the idea that air cadet flying over the past ten years was demonstrably safe is just plain wrong. One of the themes of this whole thread is that the loss of life and aircraft disaster was predicted years and years ago when the MOD started to civilianise flying. The poor maintenance practices on the gliding side are simply another symptom of a poor system.
It appears that where there have been 'issues' with flying operations (including AEF) the resultant 'fix' has been to instigate more equipment fitment, and compulsory ATC requirement.
Again this has ignored the basic VFR rules that one must adopt a good look out rather than rely on equipment that means even more instruments to scan (inside the cockpit). The whole ATC radio thing also gives a false sense of security in the VFR regime of operations and ignores the basic VFR concept.
Again this has ignored the basic VFR rules that one must adopt a good look out rather than rely on equipment that means even more instruments to scan (inside the cockpit). The whole ATC radio thing also gives a false sense of security in the VFR regime of operations and ignores the basic VFR concept.
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You seem to have missed the point of DEMONSTRABLY safe. The gliding schools, run by skilled and enthusiastic volunteers kept inadequate records, for reasons which were systemic. As you are aware, but willingly overlook, the tragic loss of life in AEF flying had nothing to do with contract supply of aircraft.
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I think you will find it is the maintenance records that have not been kept NOT the flying records. Who failed to properly keep the records has been the subject of considerable debate on this forum. So it was not the enthusiastic volunteers who are guilty of keeping inadequate records.
I think you will find it is the maintenance records that have not been kept NOT the flying records. Who failed to properly keep the records has been the subject of considerable debate on this forum. So it was not the enthusiastic volunteers who are guilty of keeping inadequate records.
Another own goal by 2FTS by not utilising the still enthusiastic long serving guys. Looks like this guy loves doing the opposite to what he should be doing. Didn’t get enough love as a child maybe, or perhaps a middle child... 😁
OB
OB
Another own goal by 2FTS by not utilising the still enthusiastic long serving guys
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Perhaps I could offer a couple of observations here.
In my view ( based on a fair amount of research) the problems with the ATC glider fleet started in the 80s with a rushed procurement of a large fleet of GRP gliders and powered aircraft. The MoD (and the RAF) failed to set up the required systems for supporting this fleet, and appear to have operated for many years without an effective Design Authority.
This initial failure was then compounded by a long running and systemic failure to maintain the aircraft properly in service. Some on this thread like to blame 'civilianisation'. Sadly, the fault (in my view) lay with the failure of the responsible RAF engineers to do their jobs and MoD staffs who failed to properly manage and supervise the support contracts they had set up. I believe that the well publicised efforts to strip the MoD of engineering specialists (led by RAF VSOs) in the 1980s and 90s probably contributed to the MoD's problems. The upshot is that by 2013, the ATC fleet was non-airworthy, mainly due to gaping holes in the mandated airworthiness documentation chain. Various reports have confirmed serious gaps in the RAF's QA arrangements, and failures to implement airworthiness critical recommendations. There were also major failures in recording of repairs and retention of documentation. Basically, poor engineering practice.
The whole scandal was finally exposed not by an operational safety audit, but by 2FTS' failure to pass a CAMO audit by the MAA. Even worse, it then took 2FTS another 15 months to grasp the scale of the problem. In the end, it took a direct threat from the MAA to get them to sort out their engineering organisation. The recovery, as is well known, has been painfully slow and required the loss of 40% of the fleet.
It's a major scandal. School children were being flown in non-airworthy RAF aircraft. The costs to the taxpayer haven't been revealed but must be substantial. Sadly, to date, no-one has been held accountable.
Best Regards as ever to all those working hard to make ATC flying safe again.
Engines
In my view ( based on a fair amount of research) the problems with the ATC glider fleet started in the 80s with a rushed procurement of a large fleet of GRP gliders and powered aircraft. The MoD (and the RAF) failed to set up the required systems for supporting this fleet, and appear to have operated for many years without an effective Design Authority.
This initial failure was then compounded by a long running and systemic failure to maintain the aircraft properly in service. Some on this thread like to blame 'civilianisation'. Sadly, the fault (in my view) lay with the failure of the responsible RAF engineers to do their jobs and MoD staffs who failed to properly manage and supervise the support contracts they had set up. I believe that the well publicised efforts to strip the MoD of engineering specialists (led by RAF VSOs) in the 1980s and 90s probably contributed to the MoD's problems. The upshot is that by 2013, the ATC fleet was non-airworthy, mainly due to gaping holes in the mandated airworthiness documentation chain. Various reports have confirmed serious gaps in the RAF's QA arrangements, and failures to implement airworthiness critical recommendations. There were also major failures in recording of repairs and retention of documentation. Basically, poor engineering practice.
The whole scandal was finally exposed not by an operational safety audit, but by 2FTS' failure to pass a CAMO audit by the MAA. Even worse, it then took 2FTS another 15 months to grasp the scale of the problem. In the end, it took a direct threat from the MAA to get them to sort out their engineering organisation. The recovery, as is well known, has been painfully slow and required the loss of 40% of the fleet.
It's a major scandal. School children were being flown in non-airworthy RAF aircraft. The costs to the taxpayer haven't been revealed but must be substantial. Sadly, to date, no-one has been held accountable.
Best Regards as ever to all those working hard to make ATC flying safe again.
Engines
It appears that where there have been 'issues' with flying operations (including AEF) the resultant 'fix' has been to instigate more equipment fitment, and compulsory ATC requirement.
Again this has ignored the basic VFR rules that one must adopt a good look out rather than rely on equipment that means even more instruments to scan (inside the cockpit). The whole ATC radio thing also gives a false sense of security in the VFR regime of operations and ignores the basic VFR concept.
Again this has ignored the basic VFR rules that one must adopt a good look out rather than rely on equipment that means even more instruments to scan (inside the cockpit). The whole ATC radio thing also gives a false sense of security in the VFR regime of operations and ignores the basic VFR concept.
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End of the Vigilants
Just when you thought the recovery was well underway JM and 2FTS drop another bombshell. Farewell Vigilant fleet 2 years early, see below
'The 2016 relaunch of Air Cadet Gliding stated we would operate up to 15 Vigilant powered gliders with an Out of Service Date (OSD) of October 2019, 6 having been recovered already. The recovery of remaining 9 Vigilant aircraft relied on an innovative recovery proposal from Grob Aircraft SE. This is no longer an option. The removal of this option, challenging technical support for 2 fleets, and low Vigilant availability mean that continued operation of Vigilant is no longer considered viable. Consequently, we will withdraw the Vigilant glider fleet from service immediately, bringing forward its planned OSD. The Topcliffe VGS will convert to the Viking aircraft earlier than originally planned. This approach will free up engineers and allow the glider engineering enterprise to focus solely on the safe recovery and operation of the Viking fleet.'
'The 2016 relaunch of Air Cadet Gliding stated we would operate up to 15 Vigilant powered gliders with an Out of Service Date (OSD) of October 2019, 6 having been recovered already. The recovery of remaining 9 Vigilant aircraft relied on an innovative recovery proposal from Grob Aircraft SE. This is no longer an option. The removal of this option, challenging technical support for 2 fleets, and low Vigilant availability mean that continued operation of Vigilant is no longer considered viable. Consequently, we will withdraw the Vigilant glider fleet from service immediately, bringing forward its planned OSD. The Topcliffe VGS will convert to the Viking aircraft earlier than originally planned. This approach will free up engineers and allow the glider engineering enterprise to focus solely on the safe recovery and operation of the Viking fleet.'
At 4pm today the 'fleet' were withdrawn for good.
I hope the volunteers were informed before the rest of the ACO/BADER was. Lots of hard work out the window. Hope there's enough volunteer motivaton at places like Topcliffe to have a strong and successful transition to Vikings.
Who knows where the Vigilants will end up..
I hope the volunteers were informed before the rest of the ACO/BADER was. Lots of hard work out the window. Hope there's enough volunteer motivaton at places like Topcliffe to have a strong and successful transition to Vikings.
Who knows where the Vigilants will end up..
I heard from an ex VGS CFI that the Vigilants are all for the axe, no being sold back to Grob, just chopped. That said I do hope one gets gifted to the RAFM.
They should close 2 FTS and admit they do not have a clue about organising anything that actually gets airborne. Its not funny anymore just a continuing waste of money that may as well go to the GSA/Clubs to provide ACO flying. No leadership, no capability, no idea about anything that gets Cadets airborne. Sad but true; why keep the 'jam tomorrow' scenario going, its only providing well paid jobs for those who are providing NOTHING for the Cadets.
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Utterly scandalous! But, as this is the public sector, no-one will be held accountable and the lunatics that are now running the asylum will carry on as before.
Yes it's from wiki but,
"Headquarters No. 2 FTS was heavily criticised for not communicating the plans to withdraw the Vigilant T1 from service and the restructuring resulting in closure of many volunteer gliding squadrons.[9] Criticism was also voiced with respect to its retention policy of volunteer personnel, management of its contracted maintenance organization, failure to achieve continued airworthiness management organisation approval during two years of non-flying[10], limited recovery of aircraft, and the approach for acquiring Part Task Trainers with grants from the RAF Charitable Trust."
From the 645 VGS Facebook page this afternoon , 7 May ;
The Grob Vigilant T1 formally retires after 27 Years of service with the Royal Air Force.
At 1600 hours on Sunday 6th May 2018 the RAF retired from service a beloved aircraft which has been close to the hearts of many Air Cadets, Staff and instructors alike.
The Grob Vigilant T1 Motor Glider entered service in 1991 and has served the Air Cadets proudly over her 27 years in service. Allowing cadets aged 16 and over to fly a powered aircraft solo on either their BGT (Basic Glider Training) or Sliver Wings Gliding Scholarship as it is now or AGT (Advanced Glider Training). Cadets of all ages have also been able to fly the Vigilant through aviation packages.
Many an Air Cadet and instructor have used the Vigilant as a stepping stone into careers in aviation, and the training they received was second to none. We have had 2 of our ex-instructors; Flt Lt James Sainty and Flt Lt Paul Kitczma join the RAF and both are Flying the mighty Eurofighter Typhoon. Another instructor James Nealings has just started on the path to become an RAF pilot.
We also have ex and current instructors flying for Easyjet, Jet2, Ryan Air, Cathay Pacific and Emirates who all started flying on the mighty Vigilant.
One senior instructor with 645 VGS, Sqn Ldr Paul Watts had accumulated over 5000 hours on the Vigilant and flew the aircraft from when it entered service.
The Vigilant offered instructors a fantastic training platform compared to the Viking where instructor and trainee were sat side by side and could stay airborne for as long as the sortie needed, ensuring consistent and effective bespoke training for each student.
The basic and very simple cockpit layout and controls made it very easy to master the Vigilant and all that flew her would agree she was a pleasure and a dream to fly. There will be many a tear shed following her retirement and it’s an aircraft you had a passion and love for.
It has been an honour and a privilege to have been given the opportunity for 645 VGS to be the only unit to have continued flying the Vigilant for the 20 months we have following the pause. We have also had the pleasure of 631 VGS (Woodvale) flying with us at RAF Topcliffe making up a joint unit flying the Vigilant.
We always knew the Vigilant was nearing the end of her service but we expected this would not be as soon as it has been.
645 VGS at RAF Topcliffe was the last unit to fly the Vigilant and they gave her a fantastic send off even awarding Flight Staff Cadet FS Dan Griffin his Grade 1 pilots (G1) wings. Also FSC Nathan Jennions was awarded his silver wings after being the last cadet to fly the Vigilant solo and FSC Harley Preston completed his Gold Wings Glider Training. Well done to them all.
The final flight was flown in ZH207 which was the same aircraft that saw 645 VGS return to the skies on Saturday 17th September 2016. The final sortie flown by OC 645 Sqn Ldr Stephen Hughes took to the air in the final flight of the Vigilant at 15:37hrs. His student was Cadet Edward Goulding from 610 (City of Chester) who was completing his Blue wings aviation package.
They touched down on runway 13 at 15:57 as the aircraft taxied back it was given a guard of honour from the squadron staff as well as an amazing and heart warming airborne salute from the Yorkshire Air Ambulance Eurocopter EC145.
This sad but proud moment marked the final flight and retirement of the mighty Grob Vigilant T1. She had been the flagship for the Air Cadets for 27 years and will be greatly missed.
OC 645 Sqn Ldr Stephen Hughes said “it has been an honour and a privilege to fly the last ever cadet flight in the Vigilant Motor Glider. We all understand the reasons, but can’t help but feel it’s a shame it is being removed from service early. She has served as an excellent platform to train and give the experience of solo flight to thousands of Air Cadets all over the country”.
He continued “As the squadron moves forward I look forward to moving the squadron back to the Viking, which 645 VGS operated from its entry into service in November 1984 until March 2003 when we moved to RAF Topcliffe. There will be many challenges to face in the conversion process as well as a completely different way of operating, however I hope we will be flying cadets again soon”
He also said “I am delighted to announce that in the interim we will continue to offer the cadet aviation ground school packages and PTT training at RAF Topcliffe”.
Cadet Edward Goulding of 610 (City of Chester) squadron was the last ever cadet to fly in the Vigilant. It was also his first flight. He commented “This memorable flight was my first ever in a Glider. I really enjoyed it and look forward to flying in the Viking”.
As OC 645 VGS confirmed, Instructors from 645 VGS will in the coming months convert to the Viking conventional Glider and we hope it won’t be to long before we will operate out of Topcliffe with the Viking. Until then we will still offer cadets Ground Based aviation packages.
We would like to thank all the squadrons, cadets and VGS staff over the years that have flown in or operated the Vigilant and join us in remembering all the fantastic experience and opportunities this great little aircraft has offered.
Flt Lt Aaron O’Roarty
645 VGS
Media Communications Officer
The Grob Vigilant T1 formally retires after 27 Years of service with the Royal Air Force.
At 1600 hours on Sunday 6th May 2018 the RAF retired from service a beloved aircraft which has been close to the hearts of many Air Cadets, Staff and instructors alike.
The Grob Vigilant T1 Motor Glider entered service in 1991 and has served the Air Cadets proudly over her 27 years in service. Allowing cadets aged 16 and over to fly a powered aircraft solo on either their BGT (Basic Glider Training) or Sliver Wings Gliding Scholarship as it is now or AGT (Advanced Glider Training). Cadets of all ages have also been able to fly the Vigilant through aviation packages.
Many an Air Cadet and instructor have used the Vigilant as a stepping stone into careers in aviation, and the training they received was second to none. We have had 2 of our ex-instructors; Flt Lt James Sainty and Flt Lt Paul Kitczma join the RAF and both are Flying the mighty Eurofighter Typhoon. Another instructor James Nealings has just started on the path to become an RAF pilot.
We also have ex and current instructors flying for Easyjet, Jet2, Ryan Air, Cathay Pacific and Emirates who all started flying on the mighty Vigilant.
One senior instructor with 645 VGS, Sqn Ldr Paul Watts had accumulated over 5000 hours on the Vigilant and flew the aircraft from when it entered service.
The Vigilant offered instructors a fantastic training platform compared to the Viking where instructor and trainee were sat side by side and could stay airborne for as long as the sortie needed, ensuring consistent and effective bespoke training for each student.
The basic and very simple cockpit layout and controls made it very easy to master the Vigilant and all that flew her would agree she was a pleasure and a dream to fly. There will be many a tear shed following her retirement and it’s an aircraft you had a passion and love for.
It has been an honour and a privilege to have been given the opportunity for 645 VGS to be the only unit to have continued flying the Vigilant for the 20 months we have following the pause. We have also had the pleasure of 631 VGS (Woodvale) flying with us at RAF Topcliffe making up a joint unit flying the Vigilant.
We always knew the Vigilant was nearing the end of her service but we expected this would not be as soon as it has been.
645 VGS at RAF Topcliffe was the last unit to fly the Vigilant and they gave her a fantastic send off even awarding Flight Staff Cadet FS Dan Griffin his Grade 1 pilots (G1) wings. Also FSC Nathan Jennions was awarded his silver wings after being the last cadet to fly the Vigilant solo and FSC Harley Preston completed his Gold Wings Glider Training. Well done to them all.
The final flight was flown in ZH207 which was the same aircraft that saw 645 VGS return to the skies on Saturday 17th September 2016. The final sortie flown by OC 645 Sqn Ldr Stephen Hughes took to the air in the final flight of the Vigilant at 15:37hrs. His student was Cadet Edward Goulding from 610 (City of Chester) who was completing his Blue wings aviation package.
They touched down on runway 13 at 15:57 as the aircraft taxied back it was given a guard of honour from the squadron staff as well as an amazing and heart warming airborne salute from the Yorkshire Air Ambulance Eurocopter EC145.
This sad but proud moment marked the final flight and retirement of the mighty Grob Vigilant T1. She had been the flagship for the Air Cadets for 27 years and will be greatly missed.
OC 645 Sqn Ldr Stephen Hughes said “it has been an honour and a privilege to fly the last ever cadet flight in the Vigilant Motor Glider. We all understand the reasons, but can’t help but feel it’s a shame it is being removed from service early. She has served as an excellent platform to train and give the experience of solo flight to thousands of Air Cadets all over the country”.
He continued “As the squadron moves forward I look forward to moving the squadron back to the Viking, which 645 VGS operated from its entry into service in November 1984 until March 2003 when we moved to RAF Topcliffe. There will be many challenges to face in the conversion process as well as a completely different way of operating, however I hope we will be flying cadets again soon”
He also said “I am delighted to announce that in the interim we will continue to offer the cadet aviation ground school packages and PTT training at RAF Topcliffe”.
Cadet Edward Goulding of 610 (City of Chester) squadron was the last ever cadet to fly in the Vigilant. It was also his first flight. He commented “This memorable flight was my first ever in a Glider. I really enjoyed it and look forward to flying in the Viking”.
As OC 645 VGS confirmed, Instructors from 645 VGS will in the coming months convert to the Viking conventional Glider and we hope it won’t be to long before we will operate out of Topcliffe with the Viking. Until then we will still offer cadets Ground Based aviation packages.
We would like to thank all the squadrons, cadets and VGS staff over the years that have flown in or operated the Vigilant and join us in remembering all the fantastic experience and opportunities this great little aircraft has offered.
Flt Lt Aaron O’Roarty
645 VGS
Media Communications Officer
[QUOTEMedia Communications Officer][/QUOTE]
Like all good journalists, 'never letting the facts get in the way of a good story'.
Some of us remember converting and getting our C to I on the Vigilant in 1990.
Like all good journalists, 'never letting the facts get in the way of a good story'.
Some of us remember converting and getting our C to I on the Vigilant in 1990.
