Air Cadets grounded?
Originally Posted by Wander00
I was not aware of cadet death(s) on AT - fault of the system, or sadly did the youngster(s) have a med issue?
I was not aware of cadet death(s) on AT
A 're-engagement' suggestion
How about this for an idea, and apologies if it is already happening.
Each ATC squadron does a class based lesson on HLS selection. They then identify suitable local sites. Ask the landowners permission. Carry out a site survey.
All the site details, timings of parade nights and contact details are fed into the system.
As part of the rotary training program, crews are encouraged to visit as many ATC squadrons as the sortie permits. Even if it is just a 'touch and go' whilst being 'marshalled' by a cadet.
At least this way, cadets will get a look at the aircraft, even if they can't fly in them.
They could even dispatch an aircraft once a week solely for this purpose. I bet you could 'touch and go' 10 sqns in a 2 hour trip.
Each ATC squadron does a class based lesson on HLS selection. They then identify suitable local sites. Ask the landowners permission. Carry out a site survey.
All the site details, timings of parade nights and contact details are fed into the system.
As part of the rotary training program, crews are encouraged to visit as many ATC squadrons as the sortie permits. Even if it is just a 'touch and go' whilst being 'marshalled' by a cadet.
At least this way, cadets will get a look at the aircraft, even if they can't fly in them.
They could even dispatch an aircraft once a week solely for this purpose. I bet you could 'touch and go' 10 sqns in a 2 hour trip.
We used to get the local squadron into our hangar when we had aircraft on maintenance and show them around. This helped with them see how aircraft actually worked. It was great doing gear swings and letting the kids select gear down and up, even let them come on engine runs in some cases.
Theres a lot of people looking for a reason not to do something as oppose to the way that things should be done, find a way of doing it!
I was a member of the ATC for some years and saw a constant stream of handbrakes coming through to stop us providing a service to those that wanted to experience and learn. I really do think that the parent service has lost the way on this and needs to do something quick to put the Air back in the ATC.
OB
Theres a lot of people looking for a reason not to do something as oppose to the way that things should be done, find a way of doing it!
I was a member of the ATC for some years and saw a constant stream of handbrakes coming through to stop us providing a service to those that wanted to experience and learn. I really do think that the parent service has lost the way on this and needs to do something quick to put the Air back in the ATC.
OB
Digin - very sad indeed, but was that ACF or ATC involvement. Not that it would matter to the family but I was being specific about AT, given the discussion about what not happening in the ATC, like flying, AT or anything much really, which also saddens me.
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Do the RAF want to continue to be responsible for Air Cadet flying, particularly VGS flying? It does not easily fit into the present structure, it is hard to properly monitor with so many remote units operating mostly at weekends and it presents Senior Officers who find themselves in a supervisory role having to chose between following all procedures fully and curtailing activity or using some discretion which could be career ending. Some of the military flying training task is contracted out to civilian companies. The civil training side has a number of TRTOs who provide a safe environment churning out cadet pilots for the airlines. I am told the "cost" of 1 hour of Vigi flying is £250 the bulk of which is the cost of the considerable support the military think is necessary and up to now has so sadly failed our young people. If we want to provide flying experience and training up to solo standard there are countless flying clubs up and down the country who are regulated and can provide this training at a fraction of the cost. Even with the necessary oversight the RAF would want to put in place this would be a more cost effective and quicker solution to this sad episode.
Precisely.
In the current regulation vs career regime, large numbers would like adventurous training of any sort to just 'go away', but absolutely no-one wants to be seen saying so or being blamed. The same applies to AT in schools, science practicals, field trips, etc.
The Death Of A Thousand Cuts by Trivia it shall be.
In the current regulation vs career regime, large numbers would like adventurous training of any sort to just 'go away', but absolutely no-one wants to be seen saying so or being blamed. The same applies to AT in schools, science practicals, field trips, etc.
The Death Of A Thousand Cuts by Trivia it shall be.
very sad indeed, but was that ACF or ATC involvement. [sic]
Theres a lot of people looking for a reason not to do something as oppose to the way that things should be done, find a way of doing it!
Do the RAF want to continue to be responsible for Air Cadet flying, particularly VGS flying? It does not easily fit into the present structure, it is hard to properly monitor with so many remote units operating mostly at weekends and it presents Senior Officers who find themselves in a supervisory role having to chose between following all procedures fully and curtailing activity or using some discretion which could be career ending. Some of the military flying training task is contracted out to civilian companies. The civil training side has a number of TRTOs who provide a safe environment churning out cadet pilots for the airlines. I am told the "cost" of 1 hour of Vigi flying is £250 the bulk of which is the cost of the considerable support the military think is necessary and up to now has so sadly failed our young people. If we want to provide flying experience and training up to solo standard there are countless flying clubs up and down the country who are regulated and can provide this training at a fraction of the cost. Even with the necessary oversight the RAF would want to put in place this would be a more cost effective and quicker solution to this sad episode.
They just want to fly. Simple as that. It doesn't have to be hands on. Passenger flying will do.
Obviously, the 'hands on' part of flying is currently beyond the capabilities of the RAF at the moment, but that doesn't mean to say flying opportunities should be reduced to near zero.
After all, not all cadets enjoy the 'hands on' stuff. For many it is stressful and not as enjoyable as being flown.
Surely it is logical to think, 'if we as an organisation can't let the kids do some flying, we will do our best to fly them'.
For example, make a Herc available at the weekend for jollies.
Obviously, the 'hands on' part of flying is currently beyond the capabilities of the RAF at the moment, but that doesn't mean to say flying opportunities should be reduced to near zero.
After all, not all cadets enjoy the 'hands on' stuff. For many it is stressful and not as enjoyable as being flown.
Surely it is logical to think, 'if we as an organisation can't let the kids do some flying, we will do our best to fly them'.
For example, make a Herc available at the weekend for jollies.
They just want to fly. Simple as that. It doesn't have to be hands on. Passenger flying will do.
Obviously, the 'hands on' part of flying is currently beyond the capabilities of the RAF at the moment, but that doesn't mean to say flying opportunities should be reduced to near zero.
After all, not all cadets enjoy the 'hands on' stuff. For many it is stressful and not as enjoyable as being flown.
Surely it is logical to think, 'if we as an organisation can't let the kids do some flying, we will do our best to fly them'.
Obviously, the 'hands on' part of flying is currently beyond the capabilities of the RAF at the moment, but that doesn't mean to say flying opportunities should be reduced to near zero.
After all, not all cadets enjoy the 'hands on' stuff. For many it is stressful and not as enjoyable as being flown.
Surely it is logical to think, 'if we as an organisation can't let the kids do some flying, we will do our best to fly them'.
Anyway, the microlight operation I described at #34 fulfilled your criteria.
Back in the 90s there were some of us, both RAFRO (OC Airfield and Wing Admin Officer - a retired Wg Cdr) and RAFVRT who considered there was too little 'Air' in Air Training Corps' so we started a 'microlight AEF' at Halton which flew many cadets in civil registered microlights (initially Cyclone AX3 then Chevvron 2-32C) with an HQAC approved 'blood chit' and eventually developed to offer HQAC approved Microlight Flying Scholarships.
Regretfully after achieving some 19 microlight 'Restricted' PPLs, it all folded when HQAC 'pulled' the funding and the microlight school was forced into liquidation.
The cadets were awarded a specially produced 'Microlight Flying Scholarship' badge which they wore on the breast of the woolly pully, not on the shoulder patch like other cadet flying badges.
Regretfully after achieving some 19 microlight 'Restricted' PPLs, it all folded when HQAC 'pulled' the funding and the microlight school was forced into liquidation.
The cadets were awarded a specially produced 'Microlight Flying Scholarship' badge which they wore on the breast of the woolly pully, not on the shoulder patch like other cadet flying badges.
Yes, I read Dave Unwin's article with interest. It doesn't really mention any real facts about what has happened apart from that he can't believe it's taken since Apr 14 to get some airworthy aircraft. He also blames the MAA (quite unfairly in my view).
What I do agree with is the fact that the Vikings have taken so long to sort out - as far as I'm aware they are Grob 103 Acros withoutthe fiddling that the Grob109s has to become Vigilants. Is this assumption correct? I would have thought that prioritising the Vikings to return to flight first might have made more sense, rather than the Viggis.
Now that this 'pause' has lasted 15 months is it time for 2FTS to come clean over why the grounding has occured? It really can't be a pause after all this time and might proactively stop media articles like Dave's causing the RAF further embarassment with speculative articles with a headline like:
Brought down, not by enemy action...You simply won't believe how long the RAF Air Training Corps has been denied serviceable gliders (c) Dave Unwin, Pilot Magazine 2015
LJ
What I do agree with is the fact that the Vikings have taken so long to sort out - as far as I'm aware they are Grob 103 Acros withoutthe fiddling that the Grob109s has to become Vigilants. Is this assumption correct? I would have thought that prioritising the Vikings to return to flight first might have made more sense, rather than the Viggis.
Now that this 'pause' has lasted 15 months is it time for 2FTS to come clean over why the grounding has occured? It really can't be a pause after all this time and might proactively stop media articles like Dave's causing the RAF further embarassment with speculative articles with a headline like:
Brought down, not by enemy action...You simply won't believe how long the RAF Air Training Corps has been denied serviceable gliders (c) Dave Unwin, Pilot Magazine 2015
LJ
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This is such a sorry tale and it will take years to get back on track. A whole generation of potential staff cadets, gone. A generation of pilots who are willing to give two weekends a month, gone. Cadets who, if they're lucky, will fly (AEF/VGS) once or twice throughout their whole 'career' in the Corps.
Flying is the only thing that makes the Air Cadet Organisation stand out above the rest. It makes me wonder whether they would have been better-off spending their weekends chasing Kirby Cadets/Sedburghs around a damp bit of grass.
Flying is the only thing that makes the Air Cadet Organisation stand out above the rest. It makes me wonder whether they would have been better-off spending their weekends chasing Kirby Cadets/Sedburghs around a damp bit of grass.
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I didn't see it myself, but a VERY reliable friend (airline pilot, spotter and ex-cadet himself) says he saw a Vigilant over Abingdon yesterday. I checked and yes, it had dayglo stripes on the wings so is unlikely to have been a civilian one.
I wondered if some instructor training had started at Rissington, which isn't that far away...
I wondered if some instructor training had started at Rissington, which isn't that far away...
Hi Leon (and everyone else), facts were hard to come by because people weren’t really prepared to talk and no one was prepared to be quoted. I blamed the MAA because my understanding is that it grounded the aircraft and kept them grounded because the paper trail has been found wanting, not because the aircraft themselves are suspect. I know a bit about gliders and – IMHO - as flying machines go, they’re quite simple. Why is it taking so long to return them to service? Furthermore (and with all due respect to my friends and colleagues in BGA clubs all over the UK) I suspect that the ATC Vikings constitute possibly the best maintained glider fleet in Britain.
If there’s really an airworthiness issue, why not take a couple of Vikings to reputable sailplane maintainers, such as Southern Sailplanes or Roger Targett (other sailplane maintainers are available) and get them stripped right down and thoroughly inspected. Will they find a reason that’s kept these aircraft grounded for the last 15 months? I very much doubt it. In fact I’d be prepared to bet a sizeable sum of money that there’s actually nothing wrong with them. After all, the global G103 fleet isn't grounded is it? And as Cows points out, so much damage has already been done – and for what?
That’s the real tragedy.
If there’s really an airworthiness issue, why not take a couple of Vikings to reputable sailplane maintainers, such as Southern Sailplanes or Roger Targett (other sailplane maintainers are available) and get them stripped right down and thoroughly inspected. Will they find a reason that’s kept these aircraft grounded for the last 15 months? I very much doubt it. In fact I’d be prepared to bet a sizeable sum of money that there’s actually nothing wrong with them. After all, the global G103 fleet isn't grounded is it? And as Cows points out, so much damage has already been done – and for what?
That’s the real tragedy.
- like you, I do not know much if any of the background, but like you I am astonished and gravely disappointed it is taking so long to resolve. I seem to hear the sound of gurgling babies going with the bathwater. The effect on the Air Cadet Organisation is clearly catastrophic