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Air Cadets grounded?

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Air Cadets grounded?

Old 23rd Apr 2017, 19:58
  #3441 (permalink)  
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Just walked over Kenley Aerodrome for the first time since before Christmas (bloody knee cartilage!) and new MoD warning signs have been erected at intervals along the peri-track, which I take to be a good sign that 615 will soon be rejoining Surrey Hills GC in keeping the airfield active.
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 08:41
  #3442 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe the new future of young people in aviation?

http://www.facebook.com/TheSpiritOfG...2100068845077/

In the time it's taken the ACO to "Unpause" TSOG has raised the funds, bought the Sherwood Ranger kit, built it and flown it.
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 10:48
  #3443 (permalink)  
 
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Cty of Truro

Well done to those involved. Down here in the West Country a similar project involved pupils at Truro who built a VP2 (some time ago).
It is amazing how 'Youth' get enthused with aviation especially when it gets 'Hands On'.
It just highlights how bad those I/c at the top of the Air Cadet system were to allow our own World Class operation to be destroyed, and how the RAF have 'LOST' the ability to operate simple aircraft.
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 10:54
  #3444 (permalink)  
 
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I am actually wondering if the engineering issues run all the way back to when they were introduced into service with an inadequate support model right from day 1 ??

Arc
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 14:21
  #3445 (permalink)  
 
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I am actually wondering if the engineering issues run all the way back to when they were introduced into service with an inadequate support model right from day 1 ??
It's a long thread, but if you wade through it you'll find your suspicions were confirmed a long time ago.
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Old 25th Apr 2017, 21:48
  #3446 (permalink)  
 
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Support Services

Well ARC
Just how complicated was it to 'organise' a system for a BASIC glass Glider and a well proven Motor Glider with an equally proven car engine.
I suggest the word Rocket Science would not be in the requirement, and the BGA/GSA seem to have handled it very well with a few paid staff and lots of 'volunteers' amazing.
The fact is the ATC was badly let down by the RAF and those that stalk the higher echelons of the Corps. The 'Volunteers' on the other hand have been beyond reproach and treated with disdain.
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Old 26th Apr 2017, 10:00
  #3447 (permalink)  
 
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As usual, Pobjoy has hit the nail squarely on the head. Here's an interesting fact, many years ago the ATC sold off its T-61s and replaced them with G109s. Most of those T-61s are still airworthy (I was flying one only last week) yet the ATC's 109s aren't. Perhaps the RAF should let the BGA and LAA look after its maintenance requirements, as all the evidence would indicate that the BGA and LAA do a better job (although to be honest the RAF have set that particular bar pretty low).
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Old 26th Apr 2017, 10:57
  #3448 (permalink)  
 
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How much money has been spent on the ACO 2FTS, CGS, VGS, PTT to bring about the "unpausing" in the last 3 years?

The Spirit of Goole spends about 25k a year and delivers this:

http://www.facebook.com/TheSpiritOfG...2100068845077/

Just think what it could achieve with the ACO's level of funding!
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Old 26th Apr 2017, 11:05
  #3449 (permalink)  
 
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I have it on reliable authority that the first Viking to be returned to service from Southern Sailplanes was billed to the taxpayer at a figure in excess of 100,000 New ASK21s are around 80,000 to buy. One really couldn't script it!
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Old 26th Apr 2017, 11:27
  #3450 (permalink)  
 
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and a rumoured 250,000 ish per Vigilant!
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Old 26th Apr 2017, 12:02
  #3451 (permalink)  
 
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Is it not time to either find someone with deep pockets, or those who know how to get a crowd funding thing together and start legal proceeding against the MoD, HQAC, and the RAF along the lines of malfeasance, lack of duty of care, both to staff and young people (Cadets), fiscal malfeasance in that the RAF failed in its duty to monitor those contracts that were, obviously, not carried out but which were paid for, etc, etc. That should pucker a few sphincters. Just a thought?
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Old 26th Apr 2017, 16:16
  #3452 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps the RAF should let the BGA and LAA look after its maintenance requirements, as all the evidence would indicate that the BGA and LAA do a better job (although to be honest the RAF have set that particular bar pretty low).
However if the maintenance folks mess up and/or lose and/or fail to update the paperwork they would still be in the same mess.

I have it on reliable authority that the first Viking to be returned to service from Southern Sailplanes was billed to the taxpayer at a figure in excess of 100,000 New ASK21s are around €80,000 to buy.
However the ATC won't get more than a handful at most new K21s delivered per year, and delivered they cost quite a bit more especially if VAT has to be paid. For example a tailwheel is an optional extra! You have to add on for instruments as well.

Also the K21 isn't immune from paperwork failings...

Schleicher can sell more K21s than they can build, they are happy with it like that, and they won't devote several years production to dig the ATC out of a hole.
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Old 26th Apr 2017, 17:11
  #3453 (permalink)  
 
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I have it on reliable authority that the first Viking to be returned to service from Southern Sailplanes was billed to the taxpayer at a figure in excess of 100,000 New ASK21s are around €80,000 to buy. One really couldn't script it!
There used to be a DEFCON (in the 112 series) that, if called up and implemented, would prevent this. There was an associated DGDQA spec setting out how to implement it, and PUS issued mandates on the financial aspect. If you didn't know them by heart, you were pouring money down the drain. They fell into disuse some years ago when non-technical staff were permitted to self-delegate engineering/airworthiness/financial authority, but didn't have the knowledge to know to use them. Commercial contributed to this, as they didn't like the fact it made a nonsense of their claim that only they can legally commit MoD to contract. As ever, same solution. Implement the regs. It's what they're for.
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Old 26th Apr 2017, 17:30
  #3454 (permalink)  
 
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"However if the maintenance folks mess up and/or lose and/or fail to update the paperwork they would still be in the same mess."

I've been the Tug Master at two gliding clubs, and the manager of one. I've never experienced anything near as utterly pathetic as this debacle, and would suggest that you need highly trained, very well paid senior officers to mis-manage at this level of incompetence. Or am I missing something?
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Old 26th Apr 2017, 23:12
  #3455 (permalink)  
 
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Not Missing Anything

Dave You certainly are not missing anything. The Centre of excellence in ATC Gliding was at the VGS coal face. Whilst still an instructor (old school wood types) I was fortunate to get involved with (the then) PFA type of aviation and indeed operated both a VW engined machine and a 1932 Comper Swift.
Of course all this meant getting involved with the maintenance and certification of these types and also led to doing flight tests on homebuilt aerobatic and racing machines.
It occurred to me that there was a huge amount of tech expertise 'out there' that designed, built, flew, and modified a whole range of aircraft.
Many of these people were also involved with ATC Gliding and yet were never involved with anything to do with 'new equipment'.
Our CO at Kenley was a tech Civil Servant at a Government armament facility and has us building all manner of 'equipment' including duralumin retrieve trolleys for the Mk 111. What is my point; well it showed me that we had a huge cache of 'capability' at the schools which it appears was not matched at HQ. The CO's conferences (as was) were actually a real 'pooling ' of hands on experience that of course made the Gliding Schools a World Class safe operation that set high standards. Sometimes this was frustrating to a young staff cadet as one of the 'local' rules instigated by our school was a 100 solo's before you could fly AE Cadets as a P2 (mainly because our site was smaller than average).Of course this was entirely 'safety based' and kept us young loons under control.(nearly) !!!
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 15:52
  #3456 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by POBJOY View Post
Dave You certainly are not missing anything. The Centre of excellence in ATC Gliding was at the VGS coal face. Whilst still an instructor (old school wood types) I was fortunate to get involved with (the then) PFA type of aviation and indeed operated both a VW engined machine and a 1932 Comper Swift.
Of course all this meant getting involved with the maintenance and certification of these types and also led to doing flight tests on homebuilt aerobatic and racing machines.
It occurred to me that there was a huge amount of tech expertise 'out there' that designed, built, flew, and modified a whole range of aircraft.
Many of these people were also involved with ATC Gliding and yet were never involved with anything to do with 'new equipment'.
Our CO at Kenley was a tech Civil Servant at a Government armament facility and has us building all manner of 'equipment' including duralumin retrieve trolleys for the Mk 111. What is my point; well it showed me that we had a huge cache of 'capability' at the schools which it appears was not matched at HQ. The CO's conferences (as was) were actually a real 'pooling ' of hands on experience that of course made the Gliding Schools a World Class safe operation that set high standards. Sometimes this was frustrating to a young staff cadet as one of the 'local' rules instigated by our school was a 100 solo's before you could fly AE Cadets as a P2 (mainly because our site was smaller than average).Of course this was entirely 'safety based' and kept us young loons under control.(nearly) !!!
At 613 there was a saying'you can fix anything with locking wire or insulating tape'.
Not quite true of course as us staff cadets were sometimes detailed to 'glue' a fabric patch on with dope!
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 17:19
  #3457 (permalink)  
 
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AH Insulating tape !!!

All the cars I ever owned as a Staff Cadet contained a 'shock absorber' and a couple of rolls of that gooy tape.
They served several purposes.
A They were always 'on hand' for instant on field repairs
B The shock absorber made a great spare tow rope.
C It was not unknown for my Beetle to do the odd retrieve when the pressure was on
D When several 'Lasham' gliders 'landed out' at Redhill during a national comp
guess who was able to tow them to the hangar and also 'remind the wing man' to keep it straight.
E The shock absorber's greatest test was when it towed a 'dead Beetle' down the A1 through London and back to Kenley for urgent attention. It had to be retired after that. It had only failed twice (due ground contact) but was repaired with a reef knot and a good layer of TAPE INSULATING !!!!
The CO was not quite so happy to find a beetle in the Hangar on Sunday being attended to by all the staff cadets plus course members (luckily it was too windy for flying)
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Old 28th Apr 2017, 12:57
  #3458 (permalink)  

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At 613 there was a saying'you can fix anything with locking wire or insulating tape'.
Not quite true of course as us staff cadets were sometimes detailed to 'glue' a fabric patch on with dope!
Airworthiness?????

To play Devil's Advocate, are not such practices just what led to the "pause".

Answers on a postcard to HQ 2 FTS ........
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Old 28th Apr 2017, 14:31
  #3459 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by teeteringhead View Post
Airworthiness?????

To play Devil's Advocate, are not such practices just what led to the "pause".

Answers on a postcard to HQ 2 FTS ........
Glass ships are a totally different world when compared to the wood and fabric machines (Mk3 and Sedburgh) which I'm talking about. Certain minor repairs could be carried out 'in house' in those days.
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Old 28th Apr 2017, 16:25
  #3460 (permalink)  
 
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I have it on reliable authority that the first Viking to be returned to service from Southern Sailplanes was billed to the taxpayer at a figure in excess of 100,000 New ASK21s are around €80,000 to buy. One really couldn't script it!
Given that the task is to fix (hopefully) upwards of fifty Vikings, how much of that quoted 100,000+ is for tooling and processes to do the overall task more efficiently than a one-off repair at 'One man and a dog in a shed' would be?

The RAF are also no doubt asking for the civilian repair organisation to operate to RAF procedures, which could well be long-winded and require people to be spending time on project plans, progress updates and all the other time consuming but non-productive activities which go into a typical MOD programme. If people have had to be brought in who are already familiar with those activities, they won't be free.
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