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Air Cadets grounded?

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Air Cadets grounded?

Old 17th Jun 2015, 21:39
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And let us not forget the plight of the poor cadets caught up in the aftermath of this management style - they are bored witless - if all the current guidelines are followed it is very difficult for the cadets to actually get out of the building !!
Mostly classroom work is not what most of these young people joined up for and it would be interesting to see the percentages of leavers at the moment (or since JM took over anyway).
Over risk averse means nothing happens and will soon lead to a very small ATC movement.
This is not speculation on my part - I do have contacts and I am not hearing good things
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Old 17th Jun 2015, 21:44
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The first six gliders are with a civilian maintenance company as I write and are contracted to be back in service in about twelve weeks.

The motor glider issue is a bit more complicated however it is likely that the fleet will be retrofitted with the Rotax 912 engine.

I would also expect the whole gliding fleet require an Avionic upgrade with 8.33 comms and a traffic system such as FLARM, this is likely to happen to coincide with the EASA 8.33 comms mandate.
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Old 17th Jun 2015, 21:54
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LJ,

the MoD having to have its airworthiness independently regulated. Not good for all.
What planet are you on? The reason that MoD airworthiness has been systematically compromised over the past 25 years, or so, is precisely because there has been no independent regulation!
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Old 17th Jun 2015, 21:56
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>...likely that the fleet will be retrofitted with the Rotax 912 engine.<

The requirement to "gurgle" a Rotax to check the oil level -- which entails 10-20 manual rotations of the propeller -- should give the health and safety people some food for thought...
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Old 17th Jun 2015, 22:19
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1.3Vstall

"Not good for all" depends from what side that you look at the problem:

Independence might be great, but let's say it's the CAA, would there be politicking between the SoS Defence and the SoS Transport? Would it be cheaper or more expensive? Would the military lose it's advantage to just do stuff in times of crisis? Would all military flying be regulated by rules written, in the main, for public commercial air transport? Would the added expense of civilian licensing all of our aircrew, engineers and air traffickers be affordable and doable in a short period of time? What would that mean for 'legacy' personnel too old to retrain in their last, say, 3 years of Service? Would the MoD ever recover from the reputational damage of not being able, or be trusted, to self-regulate?

I don't know, but my opinion at present is that it would not be "good for all", unless you would like to offer your considered view?

LJ
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Old 18th Jun 2015, 20:18
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Military oversight

The problem WAS cost cutting and lack of oversight and failing to learn the lessons of experience, what was needed was a system of oversight based on the civil system but with the contigencys that are needed by the military in a crisis.

The new MIL145 system has by and large addressed that issue, there are one or two teething problems where the military are sticking to old limitations that the civil world ( operating the same equipment ) have updated and employing contractors who have vast ( and valuable ) experience with military equipment trying to apply this experience to technologically totally different equipment rather than employing experts in the new technology, I guess this is due to the inertia of going first to the contractors you used for the previous job.
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Old 18th Jun 2015, 21:39
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To those nay-sayers...
I have personally seen that the RAF did absolutely nothing for a commonly used aircraft Maintenance Programme for approx. 20 years. 5-yearly reviews just penned-off. Warnings of maintenance requirements routinely ignored.

This is the standard the glorious RAF had plumbed to - that is now being revised through the enforced introduction of MIL 145/M. The obvious lack of impartiality of the current MAA should quite rightly be removed to at least an independence from MOD budgets.

MOD (not just the RAF) in my humble opinion cannot recover from this fully developed and completely institutionalised 'arrogance and ignorance' towards airworthiness and flight safety.

Further to this thread: Grob aircraft are NOT combat aircraft - just what "emergency measures" do you see these light training aircraft going through?

To help LEON's traditional issues: I had often proposed the theory that the MOD could (if it wanted to) declare "COMBAT OPS" where, for nominated aircraft, they could indeed drill/punch holes, without external influence, where they wanted and glue artillery into them...but those aircraft would/could NOT fly in "non-combat zones" unless those mods were properly OEM tested and supported and/or for one-flight-only for de-modification/rectification to the formal airworthiness standard as listed in the RTS. I assume that, as it wasn't invented in MOD, my proposal was ignored.

Finally: If there was a truly independent authority it would be as clear as the CAA in releasing the detail behind its decisions and "politicking" would soon be spotted and political decisions halted in the name of flight safety and airworthiness rather than cost and politics. The previous (and possibly still current) MOD/OEM practices of hiding facts to make a contract work could also be prevented by independent reviews of test results such as that seen during the A380 wing load test failures which Airbus classed as a success.


Rant over...and now breathing less heavily
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Old 18th Jun 2015, 22:41
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As an owner of a Grob 109B with a VW engine and an 8.33 avionics fit + FLARM, I've been reading these replies with interest. I love the aircraft and it is a great tourer too (mine's been to the south of France and back) but it's one failing is that it is relatively underpowered for its weight which can limit where you can get out of (not into with those great airbrakes!). At Aero in Friedrichshafen this year there was a G109B with a Rotax 912 conversion. It looked interesting (I have pics if anyone wants to see them?) and makes the 'cute' G109 look much more purposeful, but it has yet to fly and with a price tag of circa €30K to convert, it seems that take up will be slow. Maybe if the MOD do go down this route it'll help bring the price down for us civvie owners?

In the meantime, we'll just keep trying to do what we can unofficially to fly disgruntled Cadets and stop them discovering street corners etc...
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Old 18th Jun 2015, 23:52
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Looking back some forty years or so, I was a school CCF cadet. During my time with the cadet force I flew many times and was lucky enough to be awarded a flying scholarship. It more than kindled my ambition to join the RAF and fly, which I managed to do, and still do for a living, although I shall retire soon.

My daughter has just left the ATC as senior cadet of her squadron. In her four plus years with them she put in a huge amount of effort and time and represented the corps at hockey and her "wing" at many other sports.

She managed to fly just once. Quite a sad state of affairs.
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Old 19th Jun 2015, 07:30
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Flying anorak

A military size order for the Rotax 912/Grob 109 would undoubtedly give the retrofit program a boost in terms of economy of scale and is the only game in town for the continued operation of a Grob 109 fleet of any size. However the biggest slice of the cost is the engine so I don't see much change in the £30k cost.

All is now being done ( within the ability of the industry ) to get the air cadet gliders back into service, motor gliders will come later.

I look forward to the day in the near future that ATC cadets will be once again enjoying gliding as I did far too long ago !
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Old 19th Jun 2015, 14:27
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My daughter has just left the ATC as senior cadet of her squadron. In her four plus years with them she put in a huge amount of effort and time and represented the corps at hockey and her "wing" at many other sports.

She managed to fly just once. Quite a sad state of affairs.
Absolutely right. But the last four years happen to have been a very turbulent period for cadet flying, with both powered and unpowered flying suspended for much of that time coupled with the cull of AEF pilots. But the green shoots of recovery seem to be appearing, with new AEF pilots being trained...things may never be quite the same again, but the future isn't entirely bleak!
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Old 19th Jun 2015, 17:34
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"...likely that the fleet will be retrofitted with the Rotax 912 engine"

As one poster mentioned previously, there are serious H&S questions regarding the pre-flight prep of a 912. For the first start of the day, or after several hours of inactivity, it is necessary to turn the prop until the oil reservoir 'gurgles'. I have heard of at least one instance where the damn thing fired and almost took the arm off the hapless pilot concerned. The problem lies at the mag switches which build up carbon over time and end up 'ign on' despite being selected 'off'. As for the 912 engine, it is a dependable bit of kit, but what is wrong with the existing engine ?
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Old 19th Jun 2015, 19:23
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A & C - I agree, things are pretty desperate if we want to mod our Vigis for combat ops, but that doesn't really cover my point. As far as I am aware, the honourable QC gave the MOD one last chance to get its ship in order with regards to safety. So an accident with a Grob glider/motorglider on the military register would be deemed just as bad as if it had been a Typhoon and the QC would carry out his threat and take the MOD's right to underwrite its own airworthiness away.

AnglianAV8R - the mags on a 912 fire off at 220RPM. Now even with a 2.43:1 gearbox you still need to swing the prop at around 90RPM to get it to fire. So if you're conducting the 'gurgling ritual' at 90RPM then you aren't doing it right!!! Never heard of a 912 start during 'gurgling' although you can hand swing a 912 if you swing the prop quickly enough (ie. 90RPM+ to generate 220RPM+ on the crank that will self fire the mag to the Ducati electronic ignition unit). Also, starting from cold is harder and so you would probably need the choke selected as well. Finally, a very well known ROTAX expert in the UK (and world hovercraft champ) explained that 'gurgling' is all about constant slow and positive movement rather than flicking it like a hand start. Remember ROTAX 912s are different to your average Lycoming/Continental/VW set up.

LJ

Last edited by Lima Juliet; 19th Jun 2015 at 20:25.
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Old 19th Jun 2015, 19:34
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ACW559: Perhaps, speak to a Rotax technician. It only takes 4-6 turns to gurgle a 912.

Or my advice, is to turn the engine over slowly onto the compression stroke and hold it, then turn its again to compression and so on. Gurgling this way works. And less effort
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Old 19th Jun 2015, 20:23
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Like wot he said^^^^^

Remove oil tank cover, turn the propeller slowly by hand in direction of engine rotation several times to pump oil from the engine into the oil tank.
It is essential to build up compression in the combustion chamber. Maintain the pressure for a few seconds to let the gas flow via the piston rings into the crankcase. The speed of rotation is not important but the pressure and the amount of gas which is transfered into the crankcase
Direct quote from the ROTAX 912 operating manual...

LJ
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Old 19th Jun 2015, 20:54
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What was broken (so bad) that needed this fix

In 1960 i had my first flight ever as a 13 year old cadet from RAF Kenley in a MK111 glider launched by the trusty MB twin drum winch.
55 years later the only real change was the part introduction of the SLMG and that was hardly a problem; you just need less clothing to keep warm.
When you look at the number of launches/flights/cadets flown/first solo's/and the AE task in that time how does the accident record stack up against other
similar organisations that offer a similar service.
I could suggest it would hard to beat the record of the Air Cadet organisation and when you consider, the clue is in the name AIR with the motto
Venture Adventure then do we really want to dilute this great organisation to the level of being so risk adverse we do nothing; for to do nothing is a failure to young persons to engage in activities that give them a chance to develop their abilities and also learn to think outside of the box.
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Old 19th Jun 2015, 21:33
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Pobjoy

Perhaps you should consider the bigger picture? Look at the following:

23 May 82 - Chipmunk - Cambridge Airport. 5 AEF Aircraft flew into the ground due to Pilot incapacitation, pilot suffered major injuries, Cadet uninjured.

12 Aug 93 - Wessex - North Wales. Helicopter tail rotor failure and crashed into lake. 3x cadets killed.

26 Aug 93 - Chipmunk - St Athan (aircraft from Benson). Aircraft stalled during turnback maneuver. RAFVR pilot killed, ATC CI passanger badly injuried.

05 Aug 95 - 2 x Viking Gliders - Sealand - mid air collision while soaring in same thermal, one aircraft crashed killing the civilian instructor and Cadet on board, while the other instructor (who was badly injured) managed to land his aircraft with an uninjured cadet on board.

05 Mar 99 - Bulldog - Leuchars - Cat 5 due to heavy landing during AEF staff continuation training turnback maneuver.

11 Feb 09 - 2x Grob Tutor - St Athan - mid air. Both collided killing both pilots and both cadets.

14 Jun 09 - Grob Tutor - Benson - mid-air with glider. Both pilot and cadet killed. Glider pilot survived.

The last 2 accidents some 6 years ago are effectively the 'watershed' moment for Air Cadet flying, in my opinion. Regardless of what is being flown - Tutor/Viking/Vigi - and the RAF is found 'wanting' and I suspect that flying Air Cadets would be 'ENDEX'. The RAF took a right mauling over the final 2 accidents (and rightly so), a repeat in Air Cadet flying would be a disaster for all concerned.

So it's not really being "risk averse" but more a case of understanding the risk, realising that flying minors takes a higher level of responsibility and acting when you know something is wrong. No one would thank 2FTS if they knew there were known issues and they continued to fly and there was an accident (even if unrelated directly to an accident). The days of turning a blind eye and hoping everything will be alright, are over - people will be held culpable these days.

LJ
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Old 19th Jun 2015, 21:59
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>Direct quote from the ROTAX 912 operating manual...<

Many thanks -- that's very useful. I hadn't seen that quotation and the POHs for two aircraft with which I'm familiar (one with a 912 and the other with a 914) aren't anything like as descriptive.
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Old 20th Jun 2015, 08:15
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All very sad. When I was a boy (about the time Pontious was a pilot) I flew regularly with the CCF and obtained my gliding licence. Great times.

After 50 years of aviation and thus becoming well qualified, I decided to give a lot back to the cadet force. Firstly I offered my services to the local ATC Sqn but just got apathy. I then contacted another and got no reply.

One has to ask why. And take my word for it, all that is nothing to do with my character or qualifications.

Rather sad really.
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Old 20th Jun 2015, 08:35
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ACW599 - you can find the 912 operating manual here: http://flyrotax.com/portaldata/5/dokus/d06151.pdf

Sharpie - after 50 years of aviation? That would make you too old to fly cadets as I believe that the cutoff age is now 65 years of age following the unfortunate accident from 14 Jun 09 mentioned above - 'Dems da rools'.

LJ
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