Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Air Cadets grounded?

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Air Cadets grounded?

Old 6th Jan 2017, 12:58
  #3101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1,008
Leon

I believe that glider is a PZL Krosno. Only about 30 were built. I always think it looks a bit 'awkward' almost like something that was built by someone who was told what a glider looked like but had never seen one...........

Strangely - it's built of metal and fabric (a la Blanik) at a time when the rest of the world was moving to GRP for sailplanes. And that wheel skid combo at the front - what were they thinking.................

Arc
Arclite01 is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2017, 17:35
  #3102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 114
cats_five

What did cadets get from a Vigilant VGS?

The 13 - 16 year olds received Gliding Induction Courses (GIC 1,2 &3) learning Pitch, Roll and Yaw, many of these sorties were delivered by Staff Cadets in addition to the civilian and VRT staff.

16 year olds completed Gliding Scholarships (GS) which entailed being instructed to solo circuit standard within around 10 hours, 80% or so achieving their solo and gaining silver wings.

The next step Advanced Gliding Training (AGT) added advanced turns, crosswind landings and 5 solo circuits on completion gold wings are awarded.

AGT students were then able to apply to become a staff cadet at a VGS to receive further training to G2 (Pilot) Level enabling them to fly solo out of circuit.

The next stage G1 allowed a staff cadet to instruct GIC students in pitch, roll and yaw.

After a course at Central Gliding School Syerston a Staff Cadet could qualify as a B2/C Cat instructor and therefore be able to instruct GS students upto first solo.

A further course and that Staff Cadet could become a B1 instructor allowing them to teach upto AGT level and send second solos. In addition the cadet could supervise operations as duty instructor.

Most would age out by this point and either left for Uni, RAF, ATPL etc or stayed on as Civilian instructors or VRT uniform. Many going on to become A Cats and lifelong VGS instructors.

Viking units operated in a similar vein to the above.

So the organisation was/is all about continued development of the cadet not just a matter of getting kids airborne and this is why it cost 500 per hour and would be difficult for any BGA or GSA club to pick the pieces of this broken organisation.
boswell bear is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2017, 19:13
  #3103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,362
You realise that without knowing what 'Gold Wings', 'B1', 'A Cats' etc. means I don't really understand much of your post.

However for an inclusive budget of 500/hour I reckon many BGA clubs would be able to come up with something pretty good - for one thing by being able to pay instructors very well.
cats_five is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2017, 22:22
  #3104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Fleet/Gunnedah New South Wales, Australia
Posts: 124
The Australian Way

Having just worked alongside the Australian Air Cadets this week at the Gliding Club I've started working at in Australia, it is clear to see that it is a fine model for how the VGSs should run.

The RAAF rightly decided to run their gliding operations under the national body, the Gliding Federation of Australia, with modern DG1000s/Motorised K21s as trainers and an aerotow only operation, the old metal gliders are gone. Oh and they're on the civilian register, much easier!

There are experience flights just like GIC but the selection does appear tougher for scholarships, but that does produce pilots who more than likely will go a long way. There are major military facilities for gliding such as the Bathurst site but the cadets also operate out of civillian gliding clubs across the country midweek with absolutely no problem or struggle for capacity, they bring their own tug and gliders!

Cadets follow the exact GFA syllabus and progress through the various levels and get instructor ratings. Cadet progression stops after Silver C as the RAAF don't like their gliders being flown hugely cross country, but hey, that's far more than the VGSs provided even when they were fully operational. And even if you don't make the cut after solo you can at least continue your gliding with no issue at your local GFA club, unlike the differences between BGA and VGS which require retraining. Standardisation is key! It also allows Civillian Instructors suitably cleared to ensure there is never a lack of instructors.

The cadets have huge pride in their operation with dozens of qualified instructors (not just people doing experience flights) under 26. Many instructors having great success as a result in their applications to get into the RAAF. 2FTS take note, Australia is beating you, all of this has grown in the last 5 years!
planesandthings is offline  
Old 6th Jan 2017, 23:27
  #3105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 6
There still are a few issues with air cadets flying under BGA rules.

Solo and instructor standards differ greatly between the BGA and Air Cadets. Presumably if flying under BGA restrictions cadets would have to be trained to a considerably higher level to solo. The same applies for instructors, air cadet instructors aren't qualified to BGA standards and would require retraining. You could use BGA instructors but I don't think there would be enough of them.

Plus, operating air cadet gliding with BGA instructors will strain the resources of most sites. I'm not sure paying club members would be happy having their site taken over by the air cadet organisation on a regular basis. The strain on resources would seriously disrupt operations.
veep is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2017, 09:44
  #3106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uranus
Posts: 822
I agree with some of your post but I don't believe there is any love lost between the movers and shakers in the BGA and the VGSs. To help with the instructor problem the BGA could come up with a bridging scheme between a A1/A2 Cat VGS instructor to become a 1/2 or Ass Cat BGA instructor, that should be relatively easy and just involve effectively 'differences training' and an assessment. I agree that for Full Cat BGA then the whole training process as for any BGA Ass Cat should be followed.

If there was a will there would be a way. For the BGA this would be an incredible injection of youth into the organisation (that tends to be a bunch of blokes at most BGA clubs I've been to) and for the Air Cadet gliding it would dig them out of a huge hole and free them from the ridiculous over-engineering and regulatory shackles of MAA land.

On that last point, if I had a fleet of 5 Grob 115E aircraft at a civvy flying club I would expect to see 5 aircraft available on the line (maybe 4 when annuals are due), however, put a roundel on it and apply MAA CAMO to it and then you are lucky to see 2 aircraft. We've got it so badly wrong. If the civvy clubs operating similar aircraft had a much higher fatal accident rate due to tech issues then I would agree to this over-engineering - but they don't! MAA regs were written for high performance war fighting jets and helos - you couldn't get any further away with a Grob 115E, a Grob 109 or a Grob Acro...

The B Word
The B Word is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2017, 10:33
  #3107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,022
Remember boswell_bear the 23% of ACO cadets in the CCF got nothing beyond GS in 99+% of cases. Most of this benefited only the remaining 77% in the ATC.
tmmorris is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2017, 10:39
  #3108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 203
Some Air Cadets get flying with a BGA club, officially it seems!

It seems that someone at HQAC is actually listening as four cadets from 110 City of York Squadron have been some of the first to benefit from the new initiative giving Air Cadets the opportunity to glide at local civilian gliding clubs. This initiative is authorised and funded through Headquarters Air Cadets.

Have a look here.

Perhaps this new initiative could be better publicised amongst the squadrons and with the cadets.
Frelon is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2017, 10:44
  #3109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 203
Remember boswell_bear the 23% of ACO cadets in the CCF got nothing beyond GS in 99+% of cases. Most of this benefited only the remaining 77% in the ATC.
This has probably something to do with CCF units being attached to schools where the cadets had weekend studies and were not allowed to have regular weekends off to attend further training at a VGS.
Frelon is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2017, 11:08
  #3110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ulster
Age: 59
Posts: 204
More the fact they leave the CCF when they finish school at 18 though saying that two of the staff at my local VGS ,including the CFI, were both CCF who stayed on as CGIs at 18.
RUCAWO is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2017, 11:18
  #3111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: North of Watford, South of Watford Gap
Age: 63
Posts: 211
Frelon

I'm not sure that was necessarily the case: why would HQAC institue a policy ruling out weekend gliding for the CCF, when the schools concerned could simply refuse to let their cadets take up the offer? I've a feeling that CCF units tended to be offered week-long courses, rather than a series of weekends.

My gliding course was in the May half-term at Swanton Morley, but the nearest unit to my school was at Linton, some 40 miles from home and impossible to commute, even if I'd been offered a staff cadet post.

Like many others who have commented on this long-running thread, Air Cadet gliding made it possible for me to do something that I could never have afforded to do. It's a great shame that such an inspiring activity has ground to a halt.
Innominate is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2017, 11:48
  #3112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 203
CCF Training

Innominate
I'm not sure that was necessarily the case: why would HQAC institue a policy ruling out weekend gliding for the CCF, when the schools concerned could simply refuse to let their cadets take up the offer? I've a feeling that CCF units tended to be offered week-long courses, rather than a series of weekends.
I don't think it has ever been a HQAC ruling, more a case of the CCF schools putting a block on it because of students' other weekend commitments combined with distance to travel obstacles.

At my VGS we carried out 3 continuous 10 day courses (Easter, Whitsun and Summer) every year with 20 CCF cadets (from CCF units all over the country) on each course. Great days.......
Frelon is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2017, 11:53
  #3113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,175
The B word

The Grob 115's are all maintained on the civil register under EASA 145, I could not posably comment about what would or would not happen under MAA CAMO.
A and C is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2017, 12:49
  #3114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: 11 GROUP
Age: 72
Posts: 928
Cadets flying with civilian clubs

Whilst i applaud the fact that Cadets are getting 'airborne' it just highlights how badly organised the system has become on the MOD/HQ ATC side.

In effect they are paying out 'twice' for the service, and the very idea of a 'self sustaining' operation (which it was) has gone.

ATC Gliding was more than just going flying; it was about having the opportunity to develop with the system and provide a cadre of (well qualified) staff to make the system cost effective, giving ordinary youth the chance to 'self develop' which at the end of the day was a benefit to the Country at very little cost.

The real breakdown has been with the leadership from HQ ATC not having a clue as what they have lost,and the wrong people holding important posts on the operational side of things.

With ever more base closures it was never going to be as we knew it,but with the correct people in post it could be a huge improvement over what it has become.

Time for a clear out of the 'clueless' and get some decent competent leadership back at the top.
POBJOY is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2017, 15:24
  #3115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uranus
Posts: 822
The B word
The Grob 115's are all maintained on the civil register under EASA 145, I could not posably comment about what would or would not happen under MAA CAMO.
A&C it's the worst of both worlds - EASA145 with added MAA 'dabbling'!!! No wonder the serviceability rate is so poor!

The B Word
The B Word is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2017, 18:11
  #3116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by The B Word View Post
I agree with some of your post but I don't believe there is any love lost between the movers and shakers in the BGA and the VGSs. To help with the instructor problem the BGA could come up with a bridging scheme between a A1/A2 Cat VGS instructor to become a 1/2 or Ass Cat BGA instructor, that should be relatively easy and just involve effectively 'differences training' and an assessment. I agree that for Full Cat BGA then the whole training process as for any BGA Ass Cat should be followed.

If there was a will there would be a way. For the BGA this would be an incredible injection of youth into the organisation (that tends to be a bunch of blokes at most BGA clubs I've been to) and for the Air Cadet gliding it would dig them out of a huge hole and free them from the ridiculous over-engineering and regulatory shackles of MAA land.
If moving air cadet gliding over to BGA jurisdiction could be done then I think it would benefit all sides. As you say, BGA club memberships generally average not too far below retirement age, and almost entirely male (the percentage of female members at my club is something like 4%, and a few of them are wives of members who don't fly themselves). An injection of a younger and more "diverse" crowd would finally bring gliding into the 21st century.

It would also potentially open up several air cadet gliding sites to civil gliding (and vice versa).

Having said that, I think it'd probably take a minor diplomatic miracle to negotiate any sort of deal, as much as I'd like to see it.
veep is offline  
Old 7th Jan 2017, 23:36
  #3117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Fleet/Gunnedah New South Wales, Australia
Posts: 124
People discussing that the VGS and BGA systems don't work together, the Australian Air Cadets do just fine operating under their Civilian National Body and as I mentioned, run a scheme that blows the ATC out of the water. The key is standardisation, the VGSs should've been kept standardised as much as possible to the BGA regulations, I know there are obviously some differences that can't be overridden but for example there is no need to teach a different type of circuit to how the BGA do!

As for the injection of youth, sure the Air Cadets getting involved would help, but the injection is already there, Junior Membership in the BGA is well about 1000 and quickly climbing, it is the biggest membership success of the current era. The Junior National competition is totally full of 50 top under 26 pilots, a British Junior Gliding Team who won gold at the latest junior world championships, instructor courses have juniors on them fully funded by various organisations, some who have gone instructing professionally across the world kick starting their professional aviation careers, we have flying examiners aged 19, dozens of solo pilots aged 14, maintenance inspectors under 20, junior club committee members. Just to name a few!

This might not be visible to every club but the structure and success is already there, and any addition by the air cadets would be building to that, not starting it.
I'm very much sure the BGA is willing to help as much as it can, but the ball is in HQACs court with all the regulation, clubs are not struggling to find capacity, they're struggling to find ways to deal with the bureaucracy some have been faced with.
planesandthings is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2017, 00:51
  #3118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ulster
Age: 59
Posts: 204
As for the injection of youth, sure the Air Cadets getting involved would help, but the injection is already there, Junior Membership in the BGA is well about 1000 and quickly climbing, it is the biggest membership success of the current era. The Junior National competition is totally full of 50 top under 26 pilots, a British Junior Gliding Team who won gold at the latest junior world championships, instructor courses have juniors on them fully funded by various organisations, some who have gone instructing professionally across the world kick starting their professional aviation careers, we have flying examiners aged 19, dozens of solo pilots aged 14, maintenance inspectors under 20, junior club committee members. Just to name a few
Could the BGA cope with an additional 41,000 cadets ? I am fairly certain the UGC couldn't cope with 400 and there are no other suitable gliding sites here.
RUCAWO is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2017, 01:27
  #3119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by RUCAWO View Post
Could the BGA cope with an additional 41,000 cadets ? I am fairly certain the UGC couldn't cope with 400 and there are no other suitable gliding sites here.
You could run the current sites under BGA rules, and bring the gliders over to the civil register. That's the only way I can think of to create enough capacity.
veep is offline  
Old 8th Jan 2017, 08:58
  #3120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,362
I agree with some of your post but I don't believe there is any love lost between the movers and shakers in the BGA and the VGSs. To help with the instructor problem the BGA could come up with a bridging scheme between a A1/A2 Cat VGS instructor to become a 1/2 or Ass Cat BGA instructor, that should be relatively easy and just involve effectively 'differences training' and an assessment. I agree that for Full Cat BGA then the whole training process as for any BGA Ass Cat should be followed.

If there was a will there would be a way. For the BGA this would be an incredible injection of youth into the organisation (that tends to be a bunch of blokes at most BGA clubs I've been to) and for the Air Cadet gliding it would dig them out of a huge hole and free them from the ridiculous over-engineering and regulatory shackles of MAA land.
What sort of bridging scheme could you envision? They would have to attain the same standard as a BGA instructor, why have two schemes to get the same thing? The biggest issue might be that to become a BGA instructor has required an FAI Silver 'C' for quite a few years.

It might also be necessary to get away from a 'gliding course'. However the experience at my club was the biggest impediment to ATC cadets having air experience flying at my club was the ATC. We were approached, we had an initial meeting, told them we couldn't do anything that summer as the calendar was full, said for them to talk to us the following winter when the flying calendar was being arranged, so they came back in the Spring which was too late. Then they asked that for air-ex all instructors be full-cats, where BGA air-ex flying is mostly done by BIs.

I'm still not clear if the current (or maybe I should say future) purpose of ATC gliding is air-ex, which could be as little as a single 20-minute flight, or some meaningful instruction.

Could the BGA cope with an additional 41,000 cadets ?
Probably not, but right now what flying is the ATC providing them with? How many hours a year (on average) did the ATC gliders fly?
cats_five is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.