Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Air Cadets grounded?

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Air Cadets grounded?

Old 4th Oct 2016, 07:43
  #2921 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,360
Originally Posted by GliFly View Post
In my club we operate a Gliding Scholarship Scheme where we take around 6 students from the local comprehensive school and train them to solo each year with successful completion being 3 solo flights (sound familiar?). They can then go on to Bronze/LAPL(S) standard on an assisted scheme where we contribute around 50% to the cost.
At present we have 3 disillusioned ATC cadets under training, one of who has just solo'ed. They also drive our vehicles, just like 'proper' staff cadets did and, once solo, drive the winches.

As a former Staff Cadet (616) then C.I from 1959 to '64 it is, for me, particularly sad to see the way the Air Cadets (should now be Ground Cadets!) has gone, but the civilian clubs can have a lot to offer, especially if they embrace the need for some sort of positive assistance to the potential young pilots via grants, sponsorship and patronage from local businesses.
There are already quite a few organisations the provide grants, Caroline trust is one, and all civilian clubs I know have greatly reduced flying fees for under 18s.
cats_five is offline  
Old 4th Oct 2016, 23:25
  #2922 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Cambridgeshire
Posts: 31
It's a good thing for young persons in gliding that the civilian clubs seem to be helping more than ever before.
We hosted a 4-Clubs Young Pilots Challenge back in August and it was great to see so many young pilots together in friendly competition. A sponsorship arrangement meant that all their launches were free, as was their food and accommodation.
It is just such a pity that on-going mis-management has ruined gliding for the ATC.
GliFly is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2016, 09:07
  #2923 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,360
Yes, it's a pity ATC gliding may never really happen again, but BGA clubs can provide everything ATC gliding should and more. Flying glider, going solo (14 is the minimum age for that), gaining Bronze, XC endorsement, Silver etc., driving vehicles, driving the winch, log keeping, heaving gliders around the airfield, getting cold, getting hot and more. Given there are so many more BGA clubs than ATC & RAFGSA sites there is probably less travelling to do as well. Some clubs are accredited Junior Gliding Centres and there is a map of them on the BGA website.

https://www.gliding.co.uk/juniorgliding

However my own club has had cadet & junior gliding as long as I've been there which is several years before we got accreditation

We have had cadets join the RAF as pilots, fly cross-country, and some have started on becoming an instructor while still a Junior (under 25). BGA won't accept anyone for instructor training of any type unless they have a Silver C.
.
cats_five is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2016, 09:37
  #2924 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1,008
Hey Cats

I think the BGA recognized ATC Instructor ratings from B Category upwards (in the old days it used to be 'B' Cat as Assistant Rated Instructor and 'A' Cat as Full Rated Instructor) and they did not recognize the G2/G1 or 'C' Category.

Whether that still holds I'm not sure but that said, there is a potential pool of ready made instructors there for the BGA !!

As someone who has lived in both worlds there is no need to have a Silver C to teach someone to glide, and experienced instructor in either camp can achieve that. I would say that ATC instructors from 'B' Category upwards have a better theoretical knowledge than many BGA Instructors but the BGA Instructors have a better knowledge of teaching more advanced exercises (including the cross country elements) - so 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other !

Arc
Arclite01 is offline  
Old 6th Oct 2016, 08:08
  #2925 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,360
There is only a pool of ready-made instructors if they start turning up at their chosen BGA club and ask to instruct. Our experience is they don't.

I agree you can teach the initial stages without a Silver C, but since all BGA instructors except BIs are expected to teach the whole syllabus from ab initio to Bronze & XC endorsement, in practise a Silver C is needed. This might in part be why you have the view that they teach more advanced exercises better - they do much more of it and have more of the background.

Edit - there is an expectation a BI will progress, and most do.

Personally I never found theory hugely necessary thought it is interesting. Want to avoid stalling? Don't fly too slow. Want to avoid spinning? Ditto. Want to maximise XC distance? Fly at the right speed. Want to maximise rate of climb? Fly at the right speed. Want to make a good landing? Approach at the right speed, round out at the right place, choose the right reference point, fly a circuit that lets you do these things.

If you hunt through the old copies of gliding magazines & books online (there is a big archive at https://www.sailplaneandgliding.co.uk/archive), read what Ann Welch has written over the years. Theory in my experience often makes things complicated, she had a wonderful talent for simplifying things. We can only think about so much at a time, if the presentation is too complicated the really important simple things can get crowded out.
cats_five is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2016, 13:32
  #2926 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 23
I thought all "spare" Tutors were going to the AEFs?

Finland's MoD announced on 10 October that it is to purchase 28 used Grob G115E aircraft from UK firm Babcock International
Finland buys Grob G115Es for flight training | IHS Jane's 360
HP90 is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2016, 21:01
  #2927 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,902
28x plastic pigz at ~5.5M - the MoD have got a bargain and could buy 56x brand new ASK-21s with the proceeds... and have change to spare!
Lima Juliet is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2016, 21:51
  #2928 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 23
Interesting line of thought - if more Tutors (say 60 or so) were sold at that price, how many motor gliders (i.e. Super Dimonas) could be purchased?

28 Tutors for ~6m = ~214k per A/C.

214k x 60 = ~12.8m.

Anyone know the going rate for a new Super Dimona?
HP90 is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2016, 21:56
  #2929 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bath
Age: 66
Posts: 89
I can hardly imagine the air cadets without gliding. The general service knowledge was good for a school kid, the annual camps fun, firing rifles a new thing for us.

The flying scholarship was the 'Cream of the cake' but going solo in a glider was something everyone could do.

Just flying a very basic machine for free.
Flight_Idle is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2016, 07:02
  #2930 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,360
It might cover 56 brand new gliders at todays prices, but they will take 20 years or so to get delivered.
cats_five is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2016, 20:49
  #2931 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: UK
Age: 49
Posts: 476
20 years my @rse!

The Australian Cadets have just taken delivery of roughly half a dozen per year in 2015/2016 - Defence Ministers Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Defence ? Air Force Cadets receive new self-launching gliders

Also, money talks. Place an order with AS for 56 gliders and I am sure they would not take 10 years to deliver! This has to be the greatest myth going surrounding the great Air Cadet gliding debacle. When someone actually asks AS, with proper financial backing to actually pay for 56 aircraft, and gets a real world answer with an actual quote, then I'll believe it. Just because a local club might have asked for a couple of K-21s and has been told it's going to 9-12 months doesn't mean that 40 gliders is going to take 20 years! Likewise, because AS will take 2 years to deliver 11 doesn't mean that 56 will take 10 years...

iRaven
iRaven is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2016, 10:07
  #2932 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 729
28x plastic pigz at ~5.5M - the MoD have got a bargain and could buy 56x brand new ASK-21s with the proceeds... and have change to spare!
No bargain for MoD - the aircraft are owned by the contractor, not the taxpayer.
kenparry is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2016, 13:40
  #2933 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Fleet/Gunnedah New South Wales, Australia
Posts: 124
Originally Posted by iRaven View Post
20 years my @rse!

The Australian Cadets have just taken delivery of roughly half a dozen per year in 2015/2016 - Defence Ministers Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Defence ? Air Force Cadets receive new self-launching gliders

Also, money talks. Place an order with AS for 56 gliders and I am sure they would not take 10 years to deliver! This has to be the greatest myth going surrounding the great Air Cadet gliding debacle. When someone actually asks AS, with proper financial backing to actually pay for 56 aircraft, and gets a real world answer with an actual quote, then I'll believe it. Just because a local club might have asked for a couple of K-21s and has been told it's going to 9-12 months doesn't mean that 40 gliders is going to take 20 years! Likewise, because AS will take 2 years to deliver 11 doesn't mean that 56 will take 10 years...

iRaven
Money talks sure, but the whole fiasco with the Vanguard was the fact that Schleicher refused to open a production line, I do not believe that has changed at all, they are still in the very same production facilities at Poppenhausen that they were 35 years ago..

I'm part of a club who have been taking deliveries of K21s over the past couple of years, our first couple have taken an entire year each after ordering, to come as a direct result of the Australian Air Cadets getting their order in before ours, and that was just half a dozen gliders for them!
And with glue failures cropping up more and more in the ASK13 fleet the demand is continuing to pick up for those clubs needing to move to Glass Gliders or face extinction, so there is still plenty of interest in the K21 despite being rolled out in 1978!

Their website claims they can produce 70-80 or so gliders in a year, unless they open new facilities or outsource the production elsewhere (huge starting costs to then having no demand) it will surely take a number of years to get an entire fleet done, depends if people/RAF are willing to wait, AS is not going to devote their entire factory when they are already busy enough with orderbooks full with the latest kit to compete against Schempp's New Ventus 3 as well as the civilian training market.
Oh and in typical RAF fashion even after building the aircraft would then need to be "modified" to suit the RAF demands seeing as the manufacturer cannot possibly know best in what is a very simple airframe, that'd take time for sure!

Plus a K21 last year cost about 80,000 all in, I'd hate to think what that'd now be with the pound dropping like a stone.

Planesandthings
planesandthings is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2016, 13:55
  #2934 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,360
Their website claims they can produce 70-80 or so gliders in a year

That is of all types, not just K21s. The others are ASH26, ASW28, ASG29, ASH30, ASH31 & ASH32. I didn't realise the ASH25 had been dropped.

Also suspect that if the RAF / ATC take it into their heads to modify any they buy I can see AS washing their hands of them.
cats_five is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2016, 14:23
  #2935 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1,008
Not going to happen. No point even wasting words................. let alone thinking time. Been there once before - didn't work.

Arc
Arclite01 is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2016, 09:54
  #2936 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 203
OK if we let the ATC Grob 103's into the hands of the civi clubs (or even the RAFGSA) - they would have them all checked over and serviceable in no time!! The hurdles would be getting them onto the civilian register.

As they say "Where there is a will, there is a way!"

BUT with the current crop of VSO's there appears no will to try anything to get the cadets into the air again.

Gentlemen, you should be ashamed of yourselves
Frelon is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2016, 12:07
  #2937 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: EDINBURGH
Posts: 1
Having planned a weeks gliding at Kirknewton it would appear there is some sort of dispute with Edinburgh ATC.
Possibly the wettest month of the year half way up a cold damp Scottish hill very close to a major international airport and paperwork not in order. If you were trying to sabotage the operation it would be difficult to do a better job.
It's a shame the men from Colditz have passed they were on track to get a glider in the air against impossible odds. This should be a walk in the park!!!
The real casualties are the cadets, hanging around trying to fly waiting for weather is bad enough without being tripped up constantly.
I'm very happy for my tax to be used for the air cadets, squandering it with no results needs invesigation.
Has anybody worked out how much per hour it will eventually cost? Probably cheaper to hire a gold plated Lear Jet.
YAK HUNTER is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2016, 12:47
  #2938 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: River Thames & Surrey
Age: 71
Posts: 8,320
Probably a silly suggestion I know, but if there was a 'basic' glider available off the shelf with similar performance to that of a T21b/T31, wouldn't that be a suitable replacement? After all, the main task is to get as many cadets airborne and up to solo standard as possible so you don't need a modern glass ship with a roughly 1:35 or 1:40 glide ratio.
When I flew microlight AEF at Halton, the aircraft we used (Cyclone AX3) had a cruise of about 50kt and was ideal for 'demonstrating' (couldn't actually 'teach' of course) primary and further effects and with an instructor, (which I wasn't but we had Paul Dewhurst, one of the most experienced microlight instructors in the country, with us at the time) most cadets could pick up the skill of landing/takeoff in a very short time, so something of this sort of performance would be needed.
I'm not advocating a return to the Venture SLMG by the way, I'm talking about a winch launched glider of similar performance.
chevvron is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2016, 13:20
  #2939 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 3,902
Chevvron

I agree but microlights may not be the answer if we want to keep the G in VGS and have an aircraft that all Cadets can fly in. So I would suggest that Scheibe Rotax Falkes are purchased - just the bog standard non-turbo ones at about the same cost as a microlight to buy new. With ~500lbs of useful load then it means that the biggest Cadets can get a go, whereas most microlights struggle with useful load above 430lbs (and some even less than that).

SF 25 C

Hell, we could even call it the Venture TMkIII...

LJ
Lima Juliet is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2016, 09:10
  #2940 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1,008
Having flown a Rotax falke last week I think that LJ is correct - it would make an excellent Cadet training Machine. If you trebled the order it could replace the Tutors at the AEF for a fraction of the price. (It's non-aerobatic of course..........)

It would not be suitable for the Winch schools of course...............which are now in the majority by far - on paper anyway (amazing turn-around on that position from 5 years ago when the Vigi school numbers were in the ascendancy).

We'd have to come to terms with a retrograde step of returning to the Fabric covered aeroplanes !!

LJ - we could just drop the Venture bit and call it the Cadet Mk3

Arc

(Never going to happen of course - pipe dream..........)
Arclite01 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.