Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules
SCINS
Hiya guys,
Purely from memory, and my experiences with 47SF running up to GW1, I understood that the SCINS (Special Configuration Inertial Navigation System) was a blend of a ring laser gyro and an INS system. It certainly never replaced the navigator, who was needed to push the memory button as the wheels hit the ground to store the touchdown point. FOM (Figure Of Merit) featured heavily in the engineering banter about the system, and, always something of a mystery to GEs of the day. Unfortunately, I was never sent on a course for SCINS, though Tucker T claims to have done some sort of course on it. I do know that the Nav who operated it on my det to the Gulf (Arthur Chapman ?) found it very useful. I'm sure that if my memories are wrong someone will put me right. Meanwhile, best to all posters on this ever lengthening thread.
Purely from memory, and my experiences with 47SF running up to GW1, I understood that the SCINS (Special Configuration Inertial Navigation System) was a blend of a ring laser gyro and an INS system. It certainly never replaced the navigator, who was needed to push the memory button as the wheels hit the ground to store the touchdown point. FOM (Figure Of Merit) featured heavily in the engineering banter about the system, and, always something of a mystery to GEs of the day. Unfortunately, I was never sent on a course for SCINS, though Tucker T claims to have done some sort of course on it. I do know that the Nav who operated it on my det to the Gulf (Arthur Chapman ?) found it very useful. I'm sure that if my memories are wrong someone will put me right. Meanwhile, best to all posters on this ever lengthening thread.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Sussex UK
Age: 66
Posts: 6,995
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Just noticed this ...
It would seem that 30 Squadron celebrated, today, 100 years since their first Operational Air Drop ... According to the Brize Station Commander.
I've posted the Twitter link to share the video capturing the drop at Keevil.
RAF BZN 30 Squadron Centenary Air Drop
Anyone got a clue as to what was 'dropped' from 'what' and 'where' 100 years ago ?
It would seem that 30 Squadron celebrated, today, 100 years since their first Operational Air Drop ... According to the Brize Station Commander.
I've posted the Twitter link to share the video capturing the drop at Keevil.
RAF BZN 30 Squadron Centenary Air Drop
Anyone got a clue as to what was 'dropped' from 'what' and 'where' 100 years ago ?
Looks like what we used to call 1 Ton Auto but as it is a 'J' with the Brooks and Perkins Dual Rail I assume they are CDS. Someone will be along soon I hope to put me right ! Very nice video thanks. And no I was not on the Kut drop !
All very different from whatever was dropped at Keevil, there's a bit of info on the 1916 techniques here, if you scroll to the end of the text about Lt Murray:
https://skipperswar.wordpress.com/20...may-13th-1916/
Somewhat similar techniques were used in support of the Allied advance on the Western Front in the last weeks of WW1, when ammunition boxes and baskets of pigeons were dropped from Corps Recce aircraft.
https://skipperswar.wordpress.com/20...may-13th-1916/
Somewhat similar techniques were used in support of the Allied advance on the Western Front in the last weeks of WW1, when ammunition boxes and baskets of pigeons were dropped from Corps Recce aircraft.
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: UK East Anglia
Age: 66
Posts: 678
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't get the video to run Coff but most likely as AA62 says CDS. our UK CDS is (was in 2011) similar to US but initiated by pulling a pin from a 3 ring release with the retrieval winch. the US pulled a cutter blade incorporated into a kind of shackle trough the strap. Two rows of 48" wide baseboards hooked under a centreline vertical restraint beam.
To be pedantic the Dual Row Airdrop System (DRAS) was something used on C17 for 88" wide type Vs.
Thanks for the link @ICM I understood the parachutes were improvised from sheets. still 13 tons from a BE2 in 5 x 50 lb packages is quite a lot. Can we still do 24 one ton CDS in one go from a J?
To be pedantic the Dual Row Airdrop System (DRAS) was something used on C17 for 88" wide type Vs.
Thanks for the link @ICM I understood the parachutes were improvised from sheets. still 13 tons from a BE2 in 5 x 50 lb packages is quite a lot. Can we still do 24 one ton CDS in one go from a J?
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: M4 Corridor
Posts: 561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ICM.
Read the thread. It was a bit mean putting the 50lb bag of flour on the observer's seat on the way to the drop zone and then get him to throw it overboard himself. Who shouted "Green On".
Drag.
I never liked AGE or CDS where all that happened is a barrier or strop was cut and then the load only moved if there was a 5 deg nose up attitude and climb power was set. Almost as inaccurate as throwing it off the Nav seat.
Smuj.
The only frames with SCNS were SF in the days of GWl. It still didn't stop Art from cutting off a bit of Iraq near Raffah before hostilities broke out. Missed out a waypoint I think.
Read the thread. It was a bit mean putting the 50lb bag of flour on the observer's seat on the way to the drop zone and then get him to throw it overboard himself. Who shouted "Green On".
Drag.
I never liked AGE or CDS where all that happened is a barrier or strop was cut and then the load only moved if there was a 5 deg nose up attitude and climb power was set. Almost as inaccurate as throwing it off the Nav seat.
Smuj.
The only frames with SCNS were SF in the days of GWl. It still didn't stop Art from cutting off a bit of Iraq near Raffah before hostilities broke out. Missed out a waypoint I think.
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: UK East Anglia
Age: 66
Posts: 678
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well Dougie, I don't know anyone who liked AGE on the K. Certainly the despatchers did not like rigging the chains for the forward barrier or having to climb over to remove the restraint chains. they then had nothing to do save an emergency after that. Appeared a waste of a S80 drogue to break a couple of copper wires in the aft barrier.
I think we were determined to do better with CDS on the J. the Buffer was an advance and with the Centreline restraint no over the top chains required. everything else was reusable as an aim. In hindsight this became expensive and for want of a few yards of webbing we should have used the American cutter and had done
I did prepare proposals for fitting CDS to the K but it never got support with only a few years to roll.
Yes the climb technique: on the K you could give it a jolt with throttle and stick. on the J the rate of climb and jolt was just too benign under the automatic throttle control. I think we finished up at 7 degrees in the end. We did not know how to frig the computer.
The climb technique defeated the object of staying low. We did trails with the SC20 but more for wedge not CDS for some odd reason. I think the planners had assumed air superiority would have been gained before resupply was required.
I remember suggesting that we used the 7ft extractor having extended the strop to 100 ft to pull the loads positively from the aircraft with break ties daisy chained between the loads which would snap as the mains opened. The alternative suggestion was just to drop a couple of house bricks form the "bomb rack".
I remember there being significant variation in roll out time for the CARP.
Airbus had proposed driven conveyor rollers on the A400M.
When we had an issue with S80 not breaking the barriers I remember testing batches of shear wire to find that steel welding rods that were copper coated had been found. I just did not believe this. Also measuring tashengurts and developing better means of measuring porosity having been told we needed to replace all our "out of date" chutes.
I think we were determined to do better with CDS on the J. the Buffer was an advance and with the Centreline restraint no over the top chains required. everything else was reusable as an aim. In hindsight this became expensive and for want of a few yards of webbing we should have used the American cutter and had done
I did prepare proposals for fitting CDS to the K but it never got support with only a few years to roll.
Yes the climb technique: on the K you could give it a jolt with throttle and stick. on the J the rate of climb and jolt was just too benign under the automatic throttle control. I think we finished up at 7 degrees in the end. We did not know how to frig the computer.
The climb technique defeated the object of staying low. We did trails with the SC20 but more for wedge not CDS for some odd reason. I think the planners had assumed air superiority would have been gained before resupply was required.
I remember suggesting that we used the 7ft extractor having extended the strop to 100 ft to pull the loads positively from the aircraft with break ties daisy chained between the loads which would snap as the mains opened. The alternative suggestion was just to drop a couple of house bricks form the "bomb rack".
I remember there being significant variation in roll out time for the CARP.
Airbus had proposed driven conveyor rollers on the A400M.
When we had an issue with S80 not breaking the barriers I remember testing batches of shear wire to find that steel welding rods that were copper coated had been found. I just did not believe this. Also measuring tashengurts and developing better means of measuring porosity having been told we needed to replace all our "out of date" chutes.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: M4 Corridor
Posts: 561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have no photos of the freight bay when rigged for split stick AGE but my recollection of the festoons of lines and rigging must have been an AD nightmare. Every effort was made to drop the load because of the palaver in unloading the aircraft after the sortie so some HTS puke could do circuits for an hour. The climb technique for 1 tons was only 300ft to 400ft approx. (500 to 600 at night)and one presumed that the DZ area was secure. The vid of 30Sqn which I also can't run looks as if the aircraft is significantly higher than the night heights.
The rigging of an AGE load was a fine example of the art of tying nylon cord. So much to rig =so much to go wrong. The floor angle (or the lack of it) during the drop has resulted in more than one conversation between the captain and myself.
I was much happier with the heavy drop but if I understand dragartist correctly we were nearer the limits than was realised at the time. Ignorance was indeed bliss.
I was much happier with the heavy drop but if I understand dragartist correctly we were nearer the limits than was realised at the time. Ignorance was indeed bliss.
"Smuj.
The only frames with SCNS were SF in the days of GWl. It still didn't stop Art from cutting off a bit of Iraq near Raffah before hostilities broke out. Missed out a waypoint I think. "
Thanks for that Doug, not often he was so unfortunate !!🙄
Smudge 👍
The only frames with SCNS were SF in the days of GWl. It still didn't stop Art from cutting off a bit of Iraq near Raffah before hostilities broke out. Missed out a waypoint I think. "
Thanks for that Doug, not often he was so unfortunate !!🙄
Smudge 👍
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: M4 Corridor
Posts: 561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Smuj
He's a great bloke and a great mate but he also cut the leg off my only flying suit in Akrotiri after a serious application of kokkinelli one evening on a Free Fall det on Ladies Mile DZ. I'm not one to bear a grudge but I had to stick it on with black nasty and it took all the hair off my leg.
He's a great bloke and a great mate but he also cut the leg off my only flying suit in Akrotiri after a serious application of kokkinelli one evening on a Free Fall det on Ladies Mile DZ. I'm not one to bear a grudge but I had to stick it on with black nasty and it took all the hair off my leg.
Is Smudge succumbing to dementia ????
Hi all,
And forgive my intrusion in what appears to be the slow run down of this thread, a great tribute to Albert. I had the great pleasure today to wander a few miles of Wiltshire countryside in the company of my former fellow GE, one Tucker Thompson. Having enjoyed a couple of "home made" pints at the Red Lion at Cricklade we ended up back home around 1500 hours. I was enjoying a nice coffee in the back garden at west "pig atop the hill" when a J flew over, and to my surprise seemed to have an external tank fitted to the Left Wing only. Mrs smudge confirmed that one side had three engines the other had two. Is there some sort of asymmetry trial going on ? Did one just drop off ? Or, is the Red Lions beer more effective than I thought ? Any ideas would be gratefully received, oh, it was a stretch as well, not the short variety. Thanks in anticipation.
Smudge 👍
And forgive my intrusion in what appears to be the slow run down of this thread, a great tribute to Albert. I had the great pleasure today to wander a few miles of Wiltshire countryside in the company of my former fellow GE, one Tucker Thompson. Having enjoyed a couple of "home made" pints at the Red Lion at Cricklade we ended up back home around 1500 hours. I was enjoying a nice coffee in the back garden at west "pig atop the hill" when a J flew over, and to my surprise seemed to have an external tank fitted to the Left Wing only. Mrs smudge confirmed that one side had three engines the other had two. Is there some sort of asymmetry trial going on ? Did one just drop off ? Or, is the Red Lions beer more effective than I thought ? Any ideas would be gratefully received, oh, it was a stretch as well, not the short variety. Thanks in anticipation.
Smudge 👍
smudge,
yes the thread is slowly running down as we run out of tales, at least those we can tell on a public site ! Still it has had a very good innings since Coff first started it.
I hope those without a connection to the 'K' who have read the stories and viewed the pics have enjoyed it as much as we who have posted.
yes the thread is slowly running down as we run out of tales, at least those we can tell on a public site ! Still it has had a very good innings since Coff first started it.
I hope those without a connection to the 'K' who have read the stories and viewed the pics have enjoyed it as much as we who have posted.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 79
Posts: 7,803
Received 135 Likes
on
63 Posts
As someone whose only experience of the C-130 is as a pax on a few occasions, I'll grasp this moment to thank all contributors for a fascinating read, and an insight into a corner of the RAF about which most people know absolutely sod-all 
Cheers, folks.
Cheers, folks.
INTERESTING THREAD
I too would like to thank all the contributors to this very interesting and at times very funny thread. My connections with the Hercules are few; I was at Lyneham in the early days (67-69) but was on Brit Line (The name of 'Charlie 130' was banded about a lot I rememeber. I was on the 71MU team that moved XV181 off the airfield to the 'Outdoor Hangar' at Thorney Island in 1974 and then in the long hot summer '76 we dismantled it and transported it up to Marshall's of Cambridge by road. The only other time in my service was when a Herc went U/S at Orlando and I had to fly out from Odiham to help with the transfer of a Puma from one Herc to another and then down to Belize to deliver the Puma and have a night stop. On the way back the aircraft went U/S at Gander with a nose wheel steering hydraulic problem. I volunteered to help the GE and for my troubles got soaked in hydraulic oil. On return to Lyneham the captain made a phone call Odiham to my Boss to say thanks for the help. I cannot recall the captains name but he had burns on his hand from frying chips late one evening at home when the pan caught fire. Not long after that I was promoted to Sgt. I cannot recall the GE name either. - Shame on me.
Aaron.
Aaron.
Last edited by AARON O'DICKYDIDO; 24th May 2016 at 10:20. Reason: Missed text.