Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules
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Chickenlover ...
I hope you don't mind a tech follow up from me ... but I was intrigued by your reference to your Nav providing you with a "talk down" with reference to the Self Contained Navigation System (SCNS). I was reasonably sure this was basically an INS Platform you were referring to ... did a bit of digging and found this from LM covering the Ring Laser Giro/SCNS
http://www.lockheedmartin.co.uk/cont...News/V22N3.pdf
However ... I'd be interested to understand how a SCNS "talk down" is transacted ... I'm assuming Position, Range, Heading and Height data is available ... Is this information then passed to the Pilot verbally like in a PAR "talk down" ("You're above GP, adjust your rate of descent ... left of CL but converging" ... etc.) ? Does the Nav run a plot of Glideslope/Extended Centre Line to create the mental picture or have I got it totally wrong ?
Sorry ... I'm a bit sad I know ... But I still have fond memories of flogging around many years ago in a Chipmunk trying very hard to fly an accurate PAR pattern with my Boss breathing down my neck
Coff.
I hope you don't mind a tech follow up from me ... but I was intrigued by your reference to your Nav providing you with a "talk down" with reference to the Self Contained Navigation System (SCNS). I was reasonably sure this was basically an INS Platform you were referring to ... did a bit of digging and found this from LM covering the Ring Laser Giro/SCNS
http://www.lockheedmartin.co.uk/cont...News/V22N3.pdf
However ... I'd be interested to understand how a SCNS "talk down" is transacted ... I'm assuming Position, Range, Heading and Height data is available ... Is this information then passed to the Pilot verbally like in a PAR "talk down" ("You're above GP, adjust your rate of descent ... left of CL but converging" ... etc.) ? Does the Nav run a plot of Glideslope/Extended Centre Line to create the mental picture or have I got it totally wrong ?
Sorry ... I'm a bit sad I know ... But I still have fond memories of flogging around many years ago in a Chipmunk trying very hard to fly an accurate PAR pattern with my Boss breathing down my neck
Coff.
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Maldrop , the GW1 incident only took a couple of feet off the wing tip, and it was on the ground. The incident in the Falklands removed considerably more (plus fuel tank and aileron) and while airborne. At least the repair team in GW1 had the experience of the FI event to draw on .
I have pictures of the damage stashed away somewhere and got a version of the events from the crew.
On talkdowns into Kuwait Intl, we also used to do them on the newly fitted Loran 604 which was incredibly accurate but a bitch to operate as we had to learn it straight from the manual. I have no idea whether any formal training on it was ever developed, I certainly never had any.
I doubt half the stuff we did in theatre in order to complete tasks would have been signed off by the relevant authorities. For some troop sorties we even took to taxying out of sight of the local 'head shed' and reconfiguring things so that we could actually get the job done.
On one sortie I recall the Detco giving me a blank sheet of paper and asking me to mark any significant navigational features for our route. When I handed it back it featured a six-lane highway with 250'+ powerlines for almost the entire route. We were working from out-of-date aeronautical charts, being spun-up in theatre as far as possible and generally making it up as we went along.
Good times...
On talkdowns into Kuwait Intl, we also used to do them on the newly fitted Loran 604 which was incredibly accurate but a bitch to operate as we had to learn it straight from the manual. I have no idea whether any formal training on it was ever developed, I certainly never had any.
I doubt half the stuff we did in theatre in order to complete tasks would have been signed off by the relevant authorities. For some troop sorties we even took to taxying out of sight of the local 'head shed' and reconfiguring things so that we could actually get the job done.
On one sortie I recall the Detco giving me a blank sheet of paper and asking me to mark any significant navigational features for our route. When I handed it back it featured a six-lane highway with 250'+ powerlines for almost the entire route. We were working from out-of-date aeronautical charts, being spun-up in theatre as far as possible and generally making it up as we went along.
Good times...
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XV206 - MPA July 1985
Maldrop
Here are a couple of pics taken not long after XV206 landed after its mid-air in June 1985 taken by me. The No. 1 engine was not shut down, its fuel supply was compromised by the damage to the tank that supplied it and it auto-feathered
.
The port aileron was missing completely along with about 12 feet of wing! The ac had taken off from Stanley and had MPA not been open as a diversion the ac would probably not have landed safely as Stanley's runway was made of well-worn and slippery AM2 matting, only 6,000 ft long and about 85 feet wide.....
Sadly the 4 RN Sea King crew were all killed but it could have been worse. The chances of this happening in all that open sky around the Falklands was miniscule where the visibility was often unlimited but on this occasion the holes in the cheese tragically all lined-up.....
A sad day.
MB
Here are a couple of pics taken not long after XV206 landed after its mid-air in June 1985 taken by me. The No. 1 engine was not shut down, its fuel supply was compromised by the damage to the tank that supplied it and it auto-feathered
.The port aileron was missing completely along with about 12 feet of wing! The ac had taken off from Stanley and had MPA not been open as a diversion the ac would probably not have landed safely as Stanley's runway was made of well-worn and slippery AM2 matting, only 6,000 ft long and about 85 feet wide.....
Sadly the 4 RN Sea King crew were all killed but it could have been worse. The chances of this happening in all that open sky around the Falklands was miniscule where the visibility was often unlimited but on this occasion the holes in the cheese tragically all lined-up.....
A sad day.
MB
Last edited by Madbob; 10th Sep 2014 at 17:11. Reason: Amend date
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An absolute tragedy and example of Sod's Law in operation. I was on 24 for my (very) short time when this happened.
A profound shock to all concerned, RIP lads and condolences to the crew's families and friends that still have to live with the results.
A profound shock to all concerned, RIP lads and condolences to the crew's families and friends that still have to live with the results.
Madbob,
Thanks for those great shots of "Terry the Tractor" with the results of the collision, particularly the comparison between wings. As you rightly say, what a sad event, and loss it was. Having spent many happy hours in the aircraft, post the prang, it says a lot for technical capability that it was recovered at all. I assume that eventually the LH mainplane was replaced ? I must say I only flew in 206 with SF crews, who rarely flew straight and level, so any idiosyncrasies of the aircraft would probably go unnoticed.
. If you were the Eng on this aircraft during the event, then a personal hello, and I hope you are well.
Smudge
Coff, re your interest in SCNS, I'm sure Chickenlover can give you a better description, but I certainly saw SCNS being used in the run up to GW1 where we did visual approaches during the day to "strips", with the Nav I assume, taking positional fixes during the visual procedure. Having stored these positions, the sortie could then be repeated at night, with pilot reference provided through the heading and pitch steering bars on the Golliwogs eyeball, backed up using NVG. I know that one Arthur C*****n once convinced me of such, but then, he was a Nav, and me a just a GE.
Thanks for those great shots of "Terry the Tractor" with the results of the collision, particularly the comparison between wings. As you rightly say, what a sad event, and loss it was. Having spent many happy hours in the aircraft, post the prang, it says a lot for technical capability that it was recovered at all. I assume that eventually the LH mainplane was replaced ? I must say I only flew in 206 with SF crews, who rarely flew straight and level, so any idiosyncrasies of the aircraft would probably go unnoticed.
. If you were the Eng on this aircraft during the event, then a personal hello, and I hope you are well.Smudge
Coff, re your interest in SCNS, I'm sure Chickenlover can give you a better description, but I certainly saw SCNS being used in the run up to GW1 where we did visual approaches during the day to "strips", with the Nav I assume, taking positional fixes during the visual procedure. Having stored these positions, the sortie could then be repeated at night, with pilot reference provided through the heading and pitch steering bars on the Golliwogs eyeball, backed up using NVG. I know that one Arthur C*****n once convinced me of such, but then, he was a Nav, and me a just a GE.
Last edited by smujsmith; 10th Sep 2014 at 20:57.
One of the early trips I did on the 'K' was out to Sydney to recover the service participants from the London to Sydney Car Marathon. We brought back four cars. I think all of them pretty knackered as you might expect. At least one had to be pushed on . If we had a firm arrival anywhere I would have expected several to collapse in a heap. Still it was a very good trip .
Fairford-Muharraq
Muharraq-Gan
Gan-Cocos
Cocos-Perth
Perth-Richmond
Richmond-Alice Springs
Alice-Changi
Changi-Gan
Gan-Muharraq
Muharraq- Nice
Nice-Fairford
Arrived home on Dec 23 1968 with one in mech gov !
Fairford-Muharraq
Muharraq-Gan
Gan-Cocos
Cocos-Perth
Perth-Richmond
Richmond-Alice Springs
Alice-Changi
Changi-Gan
Gan-Muharraq
Muharraq- Nice
Nice-Fairford
Arrived home on Dec 23 1968 with one in mech gov !
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I had no idea that this picture was in the public domain - assuming the link works / is allowed, it shows the untimely demise of our 'Terry the Tractor' aka XV206 in Afghanistan. If the link doesn't work, I have downloaded it and can post later.
XV206burn photos | C-130.net
You can also lose a few hours of your life perusing the many RAF Herc pics there.
Another top tip - go to Flikr.com and type various combinations of C130 / Hercules / Low etc into the search bar and you will find some stunning images.
XV206burn photos | C-130.net
You can also lose a few hours of your life perusing the many RAF Herc pics there.
Another top tip - go to Flikr.com and type various combinations of C130 / Hercules / Low etc into the search bar and you will find some stunning images.
Chickenlover,
some interesting pics on that link. I have two pics of the crash site of XV 180 at Fairford. These were sent to me anonymously without any explanation. I do not think they have ever been seen before.
Going back to GW1, when it was brewing up I attended a conference at group.
One of the subjects discussed was the infil/exfil of troops etc when the a/c was not in the correct pax fit. Someone wanted to insist the we re-role the a/c to normal pax fits to comply with the extant rules. This, in the engine running offload/onloads on the strips we were to use was lunatic. I proposed we adopt the well tried USAF Vietnam method of just sitting them on the floor. After the usual argy bargy this was agreed provided they sat on their kit ! Have you ever tried sitting on a Bergen ? I told my ALMs to just do what seems sensible at the time.
The other subject was casevac. None of those at the meeting had ever seen a Herc with full casevac fit. If they had they would have had a fit. Everything was planned from diagrams. The problem was that due to extra kit in the 'hog's trough' and the 'silencer on the heating fan you could not fit the a/c out as per the diagrams.
I did one of the first casevac trials when we got the 'K' and the UK stretcher handles were too thick to fit into the locking devices on the stretcher straps.
They were all supposed to be modified. I was concerned that if we used war stocks we may end up with unmodded ones. This was a surprise to them.
They also wanted to casevac the casualties straight home on the Herc.
In the end sense prevailed and it was agreed the Herc would take them to Akro and the VC10/Tristar would take them home in rather more comfort.
Why is it we always have to fight a war on two fronts to get the job done, the enemy within and the enemy without ?
some interesting pics on that link. I have two pics of the crash site of XV 180 at Fairford. These were sent to me anonymously without any explanation. I do not think they have ever been seen before.
Going back to GW1, when it was brewing up I attended a conference at group.
One of the subjects discussed was the infil/exfil of troops etc when the a/c was not in the correct pax fit. Someone wanted to insist the we re-role the a/c to normal pax fits to comply with the extant rules. This, in the engine running offload/onloads on the strips we were to use was lunatic. I proposed we adopt the well tried USAF Vietnam method of just sitting them on the floor. After the usual argy bargy this was agreed provided they sat on their kit ! Have you ever tried sitting on a Bergen ? I told my ALMs to just do what seems sensible at the time.
The other subject was casevac. None of those at the meeting had ever seen a Herc with full casevac fit. If they had they would have had a fit. Everything was planned from diagrams. The problem was that due to extra kit in the 'hog's trough' and the 'silencer on the heating fan you could not fit the a/c out as per the diagrams.
I did one of the first casevac trials when we got the 'K' and the UK stretcher handles were too thick to fit into the locking devices on the stretcher straps.
They were all supposed to be modified. I was concerned that if we used war stocks we may end up with unmodded ones. This was a surprise to them.
They also wanted to casevac the casualties straight home on the Herc.
In the end sense prevailed and it was agreed the Herc would take them to Akro and the VC10/Tristar would take them home in rather more comfort.
Why is it we always have to fight a war on two fronts to get the job done, the enemy within and the enemy without ?
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Gents ...
All very sobering indeed.
My dear old Dad (WWII RE Bomb Disposal Officer ... and holder of the MC) said on many occasions that ... "When the balloon goes up you have to do what's necessary to get the job done. Your training helps you make the right calls, but no amount of peacetime procedural training will be sufficient to prepare you for what you will be faced with or required to do in action" ... Your personal recounts above are continuing testimony to My Dad's words.
AA62 ... It always amazes me how "others", not usually at the sharp end (or haven't been there for a while), and possibly further up the tree, don't instinctively seek advice from the guys actually "doing the job" in the Fist Instance
I too wish to pay my respects to the Sea King Crew who lost their lives in the FI tragedy.
Coff.
All very sobering indeed.
My dear old Dad (WWII RE Bomb Disposal Officer ... and holder of the MC) said on many occasions that ... "When the balloon goes up you have to do what's necessary to get the job done. Your training helps you make the right calls, but no amount of peacetime procedural training will be sufficient to prepare you for what you will be faced with or required to do in action" ... Your personal recounts above are continuing testimony to My Dad's words.
AA62 ... It always amazes me how "others", not usually at the sharp end (or haven't been there for a while), and possibly further up the tree, don't instinctively seek advice from the guys actually "doing the job" in the Fist Instance
I too wish to pay my respects to the Sea King Crew who lost their lives in the FI tragedy.
Coff.
Our solution to the troop exfils was that they lined up in rows of three and quick-marched up the ramp until they started bouncing off FS245. Each row was counted off by the ALM and guesstimated at 1,000lbs. When we were full (or at MTOW) the ramp was closed and strops attached to floorpoints were secured across each row to provide something to hold onto.
On the Casevac side I remember doing a full mission profile to examine how effective we would be. The low-level turbulence and jinking required to avoid oil-fires. helos, particularly tall camels etc. would have ensured that any pax who were not injured on boarding, would have been by the time we landed. As I recall, we also had the callsign 'Stiff' which I was told was thought up by one of the STS wags.
On the Casevac side I remember doing a full mission profile to examine how effective we would be. The low-level turbulence and jinking required to avoid oil-fires. helos, particularly tall camels etc. would have ensured that any pax who were not injured on boarding, would have been by the time we landed. As I recall, we also had the callsign 'Stiff' which I was told was thought up by one of the STS wags.
Mal Drop,
Interesting your "guesstimated" weight for troops. I was always led to believe that Albert cold not be overloaded (weight wise) by self loading freight. Having seen some estimated numbers for people moved on the Dacca Airlift, I'm wondering if in reality, with people, it was fill to max and fly ? I'm sure the likes of AA62 will have an opinion on that, and I will no doubt get a slapping. Of course, with troops, you have the baggage they carry as well, which may account for the need for an estimate.
Chickenlover,
Thanks for the link to the end of Terry, I had some fine times in that aircraft, with some fine people.
Smudge
Interesting your "guesstimated" weight for troops. I was always led to believe that Albert cold not be overloaded (weight wise) by self loading freight. Having seen some estimated numbers for people moved on the Dacca Airlift, I'm wondering if in reality, with people, it was fill to max and fly ? I'm sure the likes of AA62 will have an opinion on that, and I will no doubt get a slapping
. Of course, with troops, you have the baggage they carry as well, which may account for the need for an estimate. Chickenlover,
Thanks for the link to the end of Terry, I had some fine times in that aircraft, with some fine people.
Smudge
Guesstimates required because:
1. No official figures were promulgated for AUW of exfil troops complete with war kit, weapons and whatever other interesting items they had.
2. No air movements terminals on the small patches of bulldozed and oiled sand where the above could be weighed to within a sixteenth of an ounce (we were still in Imperial units back then).
3. We needed to get the job done, engines running and with a minimum of fannying about.
As I recall from my refugee/humanitarian sorties elsewhere, our passengers tended to be a bit lighter than the average British infantryman and were less prone to carrying honking great bergens and other big bags of stuff that goes bang. The non-SF folks also usually operated from a paved surface rather than an ad-hoc bit of desert which had been cleared as a strip.
1. No official figures were promulgated for AUW of exfil troops complete with war kit, weapons and whatever other interesting items they had.
2. No air movements terminals on the small patches of bulldozed and oiled sand where the above could be weighed to within a sixteenth of an ounce (we were still in Imperial units back then).
3. We needed to get the job done, engines running and with a minimum of fannying about.
As I recall from my refugee/humanitarian sorties elsewhere, our passengers tended to be a bit lighter than the average British infantryman and were less prone to carrying honking great bergens and other big bags of stuff that goes bang. The non-SF folks also usually operated from a paved surface rather than an ad-hoc bit of desert which had been cleared as a strip.
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I proposed we adopt the well tried USAF Vietnam method of just sitting them on the floor.
On XV 189, I remember it so well because it was unbearably hot and humid in Goose, seriously rare event, and the blackflies were up and about munching (!) everyone in sight. A forest fire was raging just across the river and was bearing down on the airfield, more pertinently on the fuel storage plant on the edge of the airfield.
At Dark o'clock the phone rang (crew residing in the Labrador Inn due to decorators!) and was quickly replaced in holder with expletives echoing down the phone line. When someone actually did listen to the caller, discovering that he had recently told that senior officer to F*** O** and stop disturbing him, he got the news that the crew of XV189 was required at the airfield immediately with the intention of evacuating over 200 personnel down to Gander in the event of the fire jumping the river and threatening the fuel storage.
Albert was thus decked out with a festive looking interior as the Loadmaster branch got down to setting up lashing tape in a continuous maze, much like airports of today, for the passengers to be guided aboard and to have something to hold on to.
As it happens, the wind changed as dawn broke and we all went back to bed. Something of an anti-climax, but at least the blackflies couldn't get through the triple glazing of the Labrador Inn. 12 hours later it was back to Lyneham.....via Honington!
Bengerman,
I was at Goose that night - roused from my scratcher in the early hours I climbed through a trap door on to the roof of the block to see a wall of flame and hear the roar of the fire approaching the base. Only the fact that we had had an end of detachment beer call that evening and I, like the rest of the sqn, was three sheets to the wind saved me from pooing my pants!
We staggered down to the hangar and readied and flight planned the Tornados to fly out to Gander. Fortunately, as you relate, the wind changed direction at the last minute and the threat disappeared.
It was our sqn boss, A**** F******n, who was initially told to f*** o** by the Albert crew. I believe he got the message through quite forcefully on the second call.
As you say, it all ended well and were back at Honington a day later.
Hard to believe that it was thirty years ago!
I was at Goose that night - roused from my scratcher in the early hours I climbed through a trap door on to the roof of the block to see a wall of flame and hear the roar of the fire approaching the base. Only the fact that we had had an end of detachment beer call that evening and I, like the rest of the sqn, was three sheets to the wind saved me from pooing my pants!
We staggered down to the hangar and readied and flight planned the Tornados to fly out to Gander. Fortunately, as you relate, the wind changed direction at the last minute and the threat disappeared.
It was our sqn boss, A**** F******n, who was initially told to f*** o** by the Albert crew. I believe he got the message through quite forcefully on the second call.
As you say, it all ended well and were back at Honington a day later.
Hard to believe that it was thirty years ago!
Mal Drop,
your solution was identical to my proposal except that I intended that we slung slack chains across the a/c for them to hold on to. Of course with a really full load they were so packed in that any movement was rendered impossible and therefore restraint was not needed. The weights were always a considered guesstimate. In your casaevac 'experiment' did you have the full book casevac fit of 70 stretchers plus two attendants ?
As you rightly say humanitarian evacs usually meant much lighter pax without the troops very heavy kit.
your solution was identical to my proposal except that I intended that we slung slack chains across the a/c for them to hold on to. Of course with a really full load they were so packed in that any movement was rendered impossible and therefore restraint was not needed. The weights were always a considered guesstimate. In your casaevac 'experiment' did you have the full book casevac fit of 70 stretchers plus two attendants ?
As you rightly say humanitarian evacs usually meant much lighter pax without the troops very heavy kit.
AA, we had stretchers fitted but I'm not sure whether we attempted the full complement. There were also attendants but again, I cant recall whether they were actual medical personnel or just some gash shags who were rolled up into the trial. What I do remember with absolute clarity is that we seemed to be distinctly lacking in useful guidance from the top of the food chain meaning that practical operators like you had to come up with workable solutions which were passed from crew to crew to be locally implemented.